WEBVTT 00:00.480 --> 00:03.390 McKinlay Otterson: The way things worked was clear from the start. 00:03.840 --> 00:04.740 Gary Peterson: Just do what you're told. 00:04.920 --> 00:05.100 McKinlay Otterson: Mm-hmm. 00:05.490 --> 00:06.780 Gary Peterson: Do what you're told and everything be fine. 00:06.960 --> 00:09.540 The only time you get in trouble is when you don't do what you're told. 00:11.100 --> 00:14.099 McKinlay Otterson: As the new leader over supply chain and manufacturing at 00:14.099 --> 00:19.140 OC Tanner, Gary was confronted with a culture where there was no real ownership 00:19.200 --> 00:21.509 or accountability for the results. 00:22.170 --> 00:25.590 Gary Peterson: When I first moved to manufacturing, I found that that we 00:25.590 --> 00:31.349 had very bright, capable people on the floor, but they were not being invited 00:31.349 --> 00:33.629 to participate in any way whatsoever. 00:34.020 --> 00:39.390 The supervisors, the team leaders and the directors were just very controlling. 00:39.570 --> 00:39.930 Hmm. 00:40.020 --> 00:42.870 Gary Peterson: When I would talk to people about the output, they were like, well, I 00:42.870 --> 00:44.520 don't have anything to do with the output. 00:44.580 --> 00:46.560 It's the manager owns everything. 00:46.680 --> 00:49.680 Safety, quality, efficiency. 00:50.040 --> 00:51.300 I'm not involved. 00:51.300 --> 00:52.380 I was like, are you kidding me? 00:52.380 --> 00:53.705 You're touching every piece. 00:53.955 --> 00:54.305 Right? 00:54.405 --> 00:55.350 You own it all. 00:56.490 --> 00:58.590 McKinlay Otterson: So how do you change a culture like that? 00:59.055 --> 01:00.375 That's what we're talking about today. 01:00.735 --> 01:04.875 The kind of change required to take an environment that's dominated by fear, 01:05.114 --> 01:09.435 where employees feel like cogs in a machine and turn it into a culture where 01:09.435 --> 01:13.785 each person is a meaningful contributor who takes ownership and drives innovation. 01:22.664 --> 01:27.554 Welcome to Leading Outward, the Arbinger Institute's podcast, where we explore the 01:27.554 --> 01:32.145 tools and ideas we've used for over 45 years to help people solve their toughest 01:32.145 --> 01:36.795 leadership and organizational challenges by leading with an outward mindset, seeing 01:36.795 --> 01:39.795 people as people, I'm McKinley Otterson. 01:46.190 --> 01:47.930 Gary Peterson: First thing we're gonna do, let's go out on the floor. 01:47.930 --> 01:49.160 I want you to go talk to people. 01:50.510 --> 01:52.760 McKinlay Otterson: Today I'm speaking with Gary Peterson, who's 01:52.760 --> 01:54.770 been at OC Tanner for 20 years. 01:55.280 --> 01:59.450 OC Tanner is a powerhouse in the world of lean manufacturing. 01:59.720 --> 02:04.070 They've grown their revenue by 56% in the past five years, and they're showcased for 02:04.070 --> 02:06.200 Toyota and a go and see site for McKinsey. 02:06.509 --> 02:08.430 But this has not always been the case. 02:08.669 --> 02:11.549 When Gary first stepped into his role managing supply chain and 02:11.549 --> 02:16.350 manufacturing, he inherited a culture where employees operated in silence, 02:16.560 --> 02:18.329 afraid to take any initiative. 02:18.660 --> 02:20.010 Gary Peterson: We have team meetings. 02:20.910 --> 02:25.170 I'd have eight people sitting in front of me and, and we were collecting data, 02:25.170 --> 02:28.620 you know, so I'd say, okay, well let's see what the data shows for this week. 02:28.620 --> 02:30.240 You guys did this, you did that. 02:30.329 --> 02:32.609 Can we talk about, you know, what happened? 02:33.299 --> 02:33.870 Not a word. 02:34.980 --> 02:38.160 The team meetings at that time were 15 minutes long 'cause that's about all 02:38.160 --> 02:40.829 the silence I could take in, in one go. 02:41.070 --> 02:42.420 I mean, they wouldn't even look at me. 02:42.720 --> 02:43.019 McKinlay Otterson: Wow. 02:43.799 --> 02:44.579 Gary Peterson: There's just fear. 02:44.790 --> 02:45.480 A lot of fear. 02:45.510 --> 02:45.600 Yeah. 02:45.959 --> 02:51.810 It took literally months before people started to open up a little bit and the 02:51.810 --> 02:56.070 very first comment that somebody made, you know, you got your quality, your team's 02:56.070 --> 02:57.929 quality is the worst of all the teams. 02:57.929 --> 02:59.850 You, you've got to know what's going on. 03:00.550 --> 03:01.540 Woman slams her head. 03:01.630 --> 03:03.280 You wanna know what's wrong with her quality. 03:03.970 --> 03:06.250 Katie's work looks like crap. 03:06.250 --> 03:07.090 But she didn't say crap. 03:07.660 --> 03:10.180 I'm like, oh, that's not what I wanted. 03:10.180 --> 03:10.330 Right. 03:10.780 --> 03:11.320 Um, which is 03:11.320 --> 03:12.910 McKinlay Otterson: exactly why no one was saying 03:12.910 --> 03:13.090 Gary Peterson: anything. 03:13.090 --> 03:13.930 Exactly right. 03:13.990 --> 03:14.800 It's not safe. 03:15.280 --> 03:15.940 It's not safe. 03:17.954 --> 03:20.535 McKinlay Otterson: But this is not at all what their culture looks like now. 03:20.865 --> 03:25.305 I actually got to go meet Gary in person at OC Tenner, and he took me on a tour 03:25.305 --> 03:30.105 of their production floor and their space is beautiful, full of natural light 03:30.105 --> 03:33.825 and organized into aisles where each aisle has the machines the team needs. 03:33.825 --> 03:37.025 To do their work and as we walked around, Gary kept pointing out 03:37.025 --> 03:38.734 improvement after improvement. 03:39.065 --> 03:42.725 Machines that used to be filthy to work with are now totally clean to operate. 03:43.085 --> 03:46.445 All machines are height adjustable and movable, so they can be adapted to 03:46.445 --> 03:50.165 whatever project the team is working on and the specific person using the machine. 03:50.520 --> 03:54.000 Even the machine setup process has been dropped from minutes to seconds. 03:54.330 --> 03:57.900 And I ask Gary, who comes up with all these ideas, and he immediately 03:57.900 --> 04:00.450 walks me over to a whiteboard that was covered in writing. 04:00.480 --> 04:02.640 And then at the bottom of the board there are these small 04:02.640 --> 04:04.440 holders packed with slips of paper. 04:05.400 --> 04:08.220 Gary Peterson: We've got these idea cards, improvement cards. 04:08.220 --> 04:08.280 Oh. 04:09.030 --> 04:12.420 At any time a team member has something they want to improve, 04:12.420 --> 04:13.620 they write down the problem. 04:14.310 --> 04:17.400 Uh, they, they answer some questions about it, they turn it over. 04:17.430 --> 04:21.000 How much money would be saved if, you know, we'd cut out three seconds here. 04:21.000 --> 04:23.070 How many times a year they do the math. 04:23.280 --> 04:23.370 McKinlay Otterson: Mm-hmm. 04:23.610 --> 04:23.790 They're like, 04:23.790 --> 04:24.210 Gary Peterson: wow. 04:24.450 --> 04:25.740 You know, I just saved $800. 04:25.740 --> 04:26.580 That's fantastic. 04:26.580 --> 04:26.940 That's really 04:26.940 --> 04:27.240 McKinlay Otterson: cool. 04:27.420 --> 04:30.090 Gary Peterson: They write down their idea, they put it on the board here. 04:30.150 --> 04:30.330 McKinlay Otterson: Mm-hmm. 04:30.960 --> 04:34.410 Gary Peterson: And then in the weekly team meeting, the team pulls the ideas 04:34.410 --> 04:35.555 off the board and they talk about 'em. 04:35.875 --> 04:36.205 McKinlay Otterson: Cool, 04:36.445 --> 04:38.305 Gary Peterson: and the team decides which ones to implement. 04:39.855 --> 04:43.575 McKinlay Otterson: The team decides which ones to implement and being here on 04:43.575 --> 04:46.515 the floor, it's obvious why that's key. 04:46.845 --> 04:50.535 If they came up with the ideas, but someone else had the final say, it 04:50.535 --> 04:54.645 would be so easy for things to get misaligned and people to end up working 04:54.645 --> 04:57.675 in silos, but instead they own it. 04:57.855 --> 04:58.935 They track the impact. 04:59.320 --> 05:03.910 They make the decisions because they're the ones who feel the effects firsthand, 05:04.180 --> 05:08.590 and they're the ones who know exactly when and how to roll out these changes 05:08.590 --> 05:10.690 in practical and sustainable ways. 05:11.560 --> 05:11.920 That's how 05:11.920 --> 05:13.270 Gary Peterson: everything changes. 05:13.660 --> 05:16.240 Like if a team member were to say to me when I'm walking through, 05:16.240 --> 05:17.320 Hey Gary, we gotta fix this. 05:17.320 --> 05:17.740 I'm like, well, 05:18.280 --> 05:18.700 McKinlay Otterson: right, right. 05:18.700 --> 05:18.910 Actually, 05:18.910 --> 05:19.765 Gary Peterson: no one ever says that to me. 05:19.765 --> 05:20.365 They just do it. 05:20.365 --> 05:20.620 They just come. 05:20.620 --> 05:21.730 They just come and write it down. 05:22.485 --> 05:22.844 McKinlay Otterson: Okay. 05:22.844 --> 05:24.435 This seems critical too. 05:24.495 --> 05:28.844 The team isn't just throwing ideas into the void, hoping that Gary or 05:28.844 --> 05:31.094 someone else in leadership takes notice. 05:31.245 --> 05:33.495 They put things into motion themselves. 05:33.675 --> 05:34.605 No waiting around. 05:34.665 --> 05:35.955 No passing of ownership. 05:36.225 --> 05:40.365 No bottleneck of a leader, because empowerment at OC Tanner means 05:40.425 --> 05:42.315 action from everyone all the time. 05:43.095 --> 05:45.315 Gary Peterson: We give them all the data they need so they 05:45.315 --> 05:46.935 can make the best decision. 05:47.005 --> 05:47.094 Hmm. 05:47.515 --> 05:50.605 Uh, they know what their profitability is or what it was 05:50.605 --> 05:52.375 yesterday and what it is now. 05:52.825 --> 05:56.605 And this whole group is working on a profit margin for their product. 05:57.145 --> 05:58.315 And we do incent them. 05:58.315 --> 06:00.775 We, it's on our, our six month bonus. 06:00.775 --> 06:05.065 They can hit their goals, but this way they are actually chasing value 06:05.065 --> 06:10.225 to the client as opposed to, you know, pieces per hour or something like that. 06:12.885 --> 06:15.284 McKinlay Otterson: This seems like the third key ingredient. 06:15.645 --> 06:17.655 It's not just, Hey, what ideas do you have? 06:17.984 --> 06:21.885 It's what ideas do you have that will improve the business? 06:22.335 --> 06:25.125 And the team is empowered to make those changes because they 06:25.125 --> 06:27.075 have full access to the data. 06:27.405 --> 06:31.365 They see how their ideas impact the bottom line, and they care about 06:31.365 --> 06:36.164 that, not just in theory, but because they have real stakes in the results. 06:36.525 --> 06:39.465 Their work directly ties to the company's success. 06:39.800 --> 06:41.390 And they share in that success. 06:42.020 --> 06:45.020 That's what kept standing out to me as I walked the floor with Gary. 06:45.560 --> 06:49.130 Real Change is driven by the people closest to the work. 06:49.430 --> 06:50.180 They own it. 06:50.450 --> 06:54.560 They feel responsible for making things better, and that creates an environment 06:54.560 --> 06:56.420 where ideas aren't just encouraged. 06:56.664 --> 06:57.715 They're expected. 06:59.695 --> 07:03.025 This mindset doesn't just exist on a few teams at OC Tanner. 07:03.294 --> 07:04.615 It's across the board. 07:04.794 --> 07:08.695 Even the busiest teams make time to discuss new ideas, test them, 07:08.875 --> 07:10.315 and make improvements quickly. 07:11.125 --> 07:12.354 Gary Peterson: Let's go visit the team. 07:12.354 --> 07:14.485 That is the busiest. 07:14.515 --> 07:16.299 I would love to a lot of pressure on 'em. 07:16.299 --> 07:16.705 Okay, cool. 07:16.735 --> 07:19.284 More than any of the team in the factory right now. 07:20.455 --> 07:20.575 Hello? 07:20.965 --> 07:21.460 Hey, how you doing? 07:21.479 --> 07:21.860 You ready? 07:21.880 --> 07:22.500 Hi, how are you? 07:22.600 --> 07:23.110 We good. 07:23.110 --> 07:25.630 We were over in Jade and everybody was laughing and smiling and 07:25.630 --> 07:29.020 I said, Hey, let's go to the busiest team in the factory. 07:29.560 --> 07:31.870 Mary: I know Crystal says, everybody's talking about 07:31.870 --> 07:33.430 you guys, how much you laugh. 07:33.430 --> 07:34.480 I'm like, we have How much you guys? 07:34.930 --> 07:35.320 Yeah, 07:36.070 --> 07:36.405 Gary Peterson: why not? 07:37.690 --> 07:38.740 You're under too much pressure. 07:38.740 --> 07:39.970 You shouldn't be smiling or laughing. 07:41.835 --> 07:42.465 McKinlay Otterson: What's your name? 07:42.525 --> 07:42.974 Mary. 07:43.094 --> 07:43.455 Mary. 07:43.455 --> 07:44.085 I'm McKinley. 07:44.090 --> 07:44.789 Nice to meet you. 07:44.789 --> 07:45.284 Nice to meet you. 07:45.284 --> 07:49.065 Can I ask you, Mary, you're so busy, you have so much to do and you're 07:49.065 --> 07:51.870 still laughing, getting comments about how much you're laughing, 07:52.094 --> 07:52.544 Mary: how? 07:52.905 --> 07:56.745 Oh, I have a great team and I believe in them and they work hard 07:56.745 --> 07:58.695 and they're easy to work with. 07:59.534 --> 08:01.065 When you have good team, no problem. 08:01.130 --> 08:03.044 Gary Peterson: How, how do you think about them individually? 08:03.164 --> 08:05.265 Every person is different. 08:05.445 --> 08:07.544 How do you approach your work in terms of. 08:07.920 --> 08:10.260 Person by person knowing how to help each one. 08:11.100 --> 08:12.390 Mary: Oh, that's good question, Gary. 08:13.050 --> 08:13.980 Gary Peterson: I'm sure you do that. 08:14.190 --> 08:18.510 Mary: Uh, of course, because, you know, I have a Jennifer, extremely quiet. 08:19.410 --> 08:19.470 Yeah. 08:19.470 --> 08:20.970 But really, really hard worker. 08:21.510 --> 08:21.570 Hmm. 08:21.570 --> 08:26.370 So I have to be really careful how I approach her so that she doesn't 08:26.370 --> 08:27.425 think I'm the yelling on her. 08:27.685 --> 08:31.560 Oh, well then I have a, a, you yell at Christina. 08:31.580 --> 08:33.439 Christina is from Mexico. 08:33.439 --> 08:38.659 She, we have kind of same personality so we can laugh and yell and stuff like that. 08:38.720 --> 08:42.919 So yes, I try to learn who they are, how they like to be approached, 08:42.919 --> 08:44.569 how they're taking my feedback. 08:44.689 --> 08:49.069 And then we don't put our names on any defects or catches. 08:49.740 --> 08:52.920 McKinlay Otterson: As I'm listening to Mary, I'm thinking, wait, I thought the 08:52.920 --> 08:57.390 whole point was to celebrate catching the inefficiencies and defects so 08:57.569 --> 08:59.340 that they can be fixed and improved. 08:59.699 --> 09:04.260 But Mary explained that recognizing the individual who finds the problem shifts 09:04.260 --> 09:06.990 the focus away from what actually matters. 09:07.199 --> 09:11.460 Because at the end of the day, it's not about who caught the issue, it's 09:11.460 --> 09:13.920 about how the team solves the issue. 09:14.655 --> 09:18.435 Problems matter because they shine a light on where things can be better, 09:18.855 --> 09:23.745 but the win is greater efficiency, smoother processes, and a team that 09:23.745 --> 09:25.905 works together to make that happen. 09:26.175 --> 09:30.075 And talking with Mary, it became clear that this approach of a total 09:30.075 --> 09:34.365 lack of blame is a huge reason why these teams are able to take ownership 09:34.395 --> 09:35.865 and make improvements quickly. 09:37.005 --> 09:39.930 Mary: So I don't blame ever any team member or myself. 09:40.425 --> 09:41.475 For something wrong. 09:41.535 --> 09:44.985 We have a processes that we can always make better for us. 09:45.045 --> 09:46.395 We talk and what can we do? 09:46.515 --> 09:47.835 How can we change why? 09:47.835 --> 09:48.945 Somebody get confused. 09:48.975 --> 09:49.995 We need to improve it. 09:49.995 --> 09:51.075 McKinlay Otterson: You need to talk about it. 09:51.105 --> 09:53.565 Yeah, but you need to make it safe to talk about it. 09:54.105 --> 09:54.255 You, I 09:54.255 --> 09:57.165 Gary Peterson: was here one day for the huddle after lunch. 09:57.225 --> 09:59.625 They had a bad, the first two time buckets, they missed them. 10:00.105 --> 10:02.085 And Mary was like, Hey, what's, what's going on? 10:02.085 --> 10:02.265 What? 10:02.265 --> 10:03.135 What happened here? 10:03.585 --> 10:06.675 And her two most senior people, one of them said. 10:07.550 --> 10:08.210 My fault. 10:08.750 --> 10:10.040 I read the dye number wrong. 10:10.040 --> 10:12.500 I worked the wrong dye for like the whole 15 minutes. 10:12.530 --> 10:13.880 Wasted everybody's time. 10:14.600 --> 10:16.792 I can't remember if Connie said that or Emma said that, but Emma, Emma 10:16.797 --> 10:19.370 was, but Connie said, no, no, no. 10:19.709 --> 10:20.550 Not your fault. 10:20.910 --> 10:23.400 I took it from you and I didn't double check it. 10:23.459 --> 10:24.480 I just kept it working. 10:24.480 --> 10:25.439 It's my fault. 10:25.530 --> 10:30.390 In front of the executive vice president, these two senior team members were 10:30.660 --> 10:33.030 trying to take the blame from each other. 10:33.270 --> 10:33.449 Wow. 10:33.449 --> 10:34.439 For this problem. 10:34.469 --> 10:34.740 Yeah. 10:34.770 --> 10:36.510 Instead of looking for excuses. 10:36.569 --> 10:36.810 Right. 10:37.140 --> 10:38.939 Nobody worries about, well, who's fault is it? 10:38.944 --> 10:39.015 Right. 10:39.020 --> 10:40.079 No, let's just figure it out. 10:40.079 --> 10:41.459 Mary: No, exactly right. 10:41.490 --> 10:44.730 We don't want anybody to be scared to say, Hey, I make mistake. 10:44.790 --> 10:45.089 No. 10:45.089 --> 10:48.719 We wanna help them to be better and do better. 10:52.214 --> 10:52.995 McKinlay Otterson: Thanks for sharing. 10:53.295 --> 10:53.805 So nice to meet you. 10:53.805 --> 10:53.839 Thank you. 10:53.839 --> 10:54.495 Thank you for stop. 10:54.495 --> 10:55.155 Mary: Bye buddy. 10:55.214 --> 10:55.875 Best team member. 10:55.875 --> 10:56.055 Yeah. 10:58.005 --> 11:01.785 Gary Peterson: Mary is a team leader, Uhhuh, but she's not in the team. 11:01.785 --> 11:03.944 The team is making hip polish shots. 11:05.445 --> 11:06.285 McKinlay Otterson: There it is again. 11:06.315 --> 11:10.005 Mary's the team lead, but the team doesn't wait on her to step in. 11:10.395 --> 11:14.865 They are fully empowered to take action on their own, and that's what 11:14.865 --> 11:16.755 leadership looks like at OC Tanner. 11:16.755 --> 11:19.935 It's not about catching every issue or making every call. 11:20.235 --> 11:23.625 It's about building a team that can do that themselves. 11:25.365 --> 11:26.175 What was the. 11:26.714 --> 11:28.094 Beginning of this journey? 11:28.185 --> 11:31.005 Gary Peterson: Well, you know, maybe your listeners won't believe this is true. 11:31.724 --> 11:34.305 You, you don't even know this is, you didn't know this before 11:34.305 --> 11:35.505 you came here, I don't think. 11:36.045 --> 11:39.765 But we uh, everybody read leadership and self deception. 11:39.855 --> 11:40.694 McKinlay Otterson: I did not know that 11:41.415 --> 11:44.175 Gary Peterson: My rings manager, dust a knot brought it to me one day. 11:44.265 --> 11:46.035 It was still pretty hot off the press. 11:46.035 --> 11:50.444 So a couple decades ago and he says, Hey, I'm not giving you this book 11:50.444 --> 11:51.645 'cause I think you have a problem. 11:52.125 --> 11:52.425 McKinlay Otterson: You 11:52.425 --> 11:53.145 Gary Peterson: know, that's the standard. 11:53.235 --> 11:53.620 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 11:53.745 --> 11:55.694 I'd give it because I think you really like it. 11:56.220 --> 11:58.500 McKinlay Otterson: Leadership and self-Deception was first published by 11:58.500 --> 12:02.670 the Arbinger Institute over 20 years ago, and it talks about how when we're 12:02.670 --> 12:08.130 self-deceived, we don't see people as people with their own needs and concerns. 12:08.250 --> 12:11.880 And how when that happens, we end up working against the very 12:11.880 --> 12:13.500 results we're trying to achieve. 12:13.949 --> 12:17.189 Gary Peterson: And I read it, it's like, holy cow, it changed my life, literally. 12:17.790 --> 12:18.660 Um, how so? 12:18.990 --> 12:23.370 You know, you're reading and it's interesting until it connects. 12:23.670 --> 12:23.970 Hmm. 12:24.060 --> 12:26.970 Gary Peterson: Once it connects, then all of a sudden it becomes very real to me. 12:32.490 --> 12:35.760 I have six children, and as I was reading the book and they were 12:35.760 --> 12:40.830 talking about, uh, not getting up at night with the wife and, and kind 12:40.830 --> 12:44.370 of abandoning her to it, uh, guilty. 12:44.730 --> 12:44.820 Mm-hmm. 12:45.300 --> 12:50.189 Gary Peterson: And, uh, here I had all these reasons why I needed to do it. 12:50.189 --> 12:52.170 I had to go to work, I had to be productive. 12:52.170 --> 12:53.880 I mean, I could justify myself Yeah. 12:54.360 --> 12:55.380 Uh, all day long. 12:55.770 --> 12:58.650 But in the end, I was treating my wife as an object and. 12:59.125 --> 13:02.875 And, uh, and I, and I knew it, it was just like a ton of 13:02.875 --> 13:04.105 bricks, you know, falling on me. 13:04.105 --> 13:05.095 A good ton of bricks. 13:05.275 --> 13:05.455 Yeah. 13:05.455 --> 13:05.605 It 13:05.605 --> 13:08.215 Gary Peterson: didn't smash me right. 13:08.215 --> 13:12.600 It woke, it woke me up and said, you know, Gary, you use people I. You 13:12.600 --> 13:14.130 know, you treat people as an object. 13:14.130 --> 13:15.810 So I believed it. 13:16.590 --> 13:18.300 I could see its application. 13:18.300 --> 13:20.460 And so the rest of the book made sense to me. 13:20.610 --> 13:23.670 We gave everybody a copy in the factory. 13:23.910 --> 13:24.030 Hmm. 13:24.150 --> 13:25.440 And it was powerful. 13:26.070 --> 13:30.510 I was so delighted that over the course of the next several months during. 13:30.630 --> 13:33.510 The weekly team meeting, I was seeing teams in conference 13:33.510 --> 13:34.920 rooms reading the book together. 13:35.010 --> 13:35.310 Hmm. 13:35.670 --> 13:38.040 Gary Peterson: And then they put down the book and they talk. 13:38.280 --> 13:41.640 So at the same time that we were, I was starting to teach these 13:41.640 --> 13:45.360 teams about how to be a team together, how to talk about issues. 13:45.720 --> 13:49.500 I was also sitting down with the management and retraining them on, 13:49.860 --> 13:52.650 you know, being more of a coach and more of a teacher, more of a mentor, 13:52.650 --> 13:54.090 which they had no interest in doing. 13:54.600 --> 13:58.140 I think a lot of the production managers and supervisors thought. 13:58.800 --> 13:59.790 I can atlass this guy. 14:00.689 --> 14:03.000 He's not gonna lasts I, I'm a survivor. 14:03.209 --> 14:03.300 Mm-hmm. 14:03.540 --> 14:06.329 Eventually he'll just go away and I can go back to how I was. 14:06.329 --> 14:06.810 Right. 14:07.020 --> 14:09.150 Gary Peterson: There was fear on both sides. 14:09.870 --> 14:13.349 I. You know, management thinking, I don't know how to succeed in this 14:13.349 --> 14:14.910 environment that you are describing. 14:16.020 --> 14:16.349 I'm not sure. 14:16.349 --> 14:20.670 I believe this environment you are describing is actually good. 14:21.689 --> 14:25.709 There wasn't a clear message from the top that this is what we're doing. 14:25.770 --> 14:27.180 There were questions at the top. 14:27.180 --> 14:28.625 Is this the right thing to do? 14:28.829 --> 14:30.630 Are you sure about this? 14:31.030 --> 14:34.900 And even our CEO at the time I got called into his office a couple of 14:34.900 --> 14:37.030 times, explain empowerment to me. 14:37.839 --> 14:41.709 'cause it sounds like everybody's just putting off the solution 14:41.709 --> 14:44.260 until someone in the corner is forced, you know, to call it. 14:45.010 --> 14:47.680 So I was always a little bit off guard. 14:47.680 --> 14:48.579 I was a little bit afraid. 14:48.579 --> 14:50.860 I, I was running a lot on fear. 14:51.430 --> 14:53.680 Like, you know, I'm, is my job really safe? 14:53.680 --> 14:55.959 You know, if I take this next step, am I gonna be okay? 14:55.959 --> 14:56.890 So that's what we had. 14:57.540 --> 15:01.185 So, um, it took a long time, but we've turned it upside down. 15:12.525 --> 15:15.885 McKinlay Otterson: If this episode was sent to you, thanks for being here. 15:16.335 --> 15:19.245 That means someone in your life listened to this and thought 15:19.245 --> 15:21.675 of you, which is such a gift. 15:21.695 --> 15:25.535 To have relationships like that, and if someone has come to mind while you've 15:25.535 --> 15:30.005 been listening, it's probably because what you're hearing could help them solve 15:30.005 --> 15:35.255 points of friction in their life, so care enough about them to share this episode. 15:42.375 --> 15:46.365 How did you go from this uncertainty and resistance to where you are now? 15:46.755 --> 15:49.425 Gary Peterson: At one point we decided that we had to do 15:49.425 --> 15:53.415 something to get team members to realize they do control quality. 15:53.594 --> 15:55.305 They do control efficiency. 15:55.880 --> 15:57.470 They do own safety. 15:57.890 --> 15:58.010 Mm-hmm. 15:58.250 --> 15:59.690 They can work together. 15:59.690 --> 16:03.440 Those were like the four things we were trying to teach them to do, but 16:03.440 --> 16:09.080 we changed our compensation system so that as a team, you had to meet certain 16:09.080 --> 16:13.370 goals each week and you qualified for the week and you had to put together like 16:13.370 --> 16:15.860 13 outta 16 good weeks to get a raise. 16:15.890 --> 16:18.740 So if you miss like four weeks in a. 12 week period, you're 16:18.740 --> 16:19.939 basically starting over. 16:19.939 --> 16:21.470 So it's like consistency 16:21.980 --> 16:22.130 in 16:22.130 --> 16:25.579 Gary Peterson: hitting your targets, efficiency, quality, safety, and so forth. 16:25.760 --> 16:28.010 But I'll tell you the thing that made the biggest difference was 16:28.010 --> 16:31.370 they had to sit down with their manager every week one-on-one. 16:32.180 --> 16:34.850 McKinlay Otterson: OC Tanner has team leads like Mary, who 16:34.850 --> 16:38.390 we heard from earlier, whose job it is to improve processes. 16:38.870 --> 16:42.290 Then there are also team managers, which is the role Gary is talking 16:42.290 --> 16:46.340 about right now, and their job is to coach and develop their people. 16:46.920 --> 16:50.189 Gary Peterson: You had to sit down, the manager had to walk through your data 16:50.189 --> 16:54.270 with you had never happened, and the span of control was too big at the time. 16:54.270 --> 16:58.650 So we were only asking the manager to spend five, seven minutes with a person. 16:59.579 --> 16:59.730 Okay? 16:59.730 --> 17:02.310 But it was magical. 17:02.400 --> 17:07.440 You know that one-on-one time where we're talking and all of 17:07.440 --> 17:09.510 a sudden you're more real to me? 17:09.869 --> 17:11.579 I'm more real to you. 17:11.849 --> 17:13.200 It's no longer this. 17:13.754 --> 17:16.125 You know, you're up there, you're the boss, I'm down here. 17:16.125 --> 17:18.284 It's more like we're just sitting here talking to each other and actually. 17:18.929 --> 17:22.260 You're a pretty decent person, you know, and Oh, and you see how smart 17:22.260 --> 17:23.459 I am, you know, it's like right. 17:23.490 --> 17:27.089 All of a sudden I think, I think a lot of things start, a lot of doors started 17:27.089 --> 17:29.129 to open up, and I'm not kidding you. 17:29.129 --> 17:34.709 Within six weeks of just weekly interactions, one-on-one with everybody. 17:34.709 --> 17:34.770 Hmm. 17:35.250 --> 17:36.360 I was feeling. 17:36.909 --> 17:39.340 Some pretty big icebergs melt. 17:40.000 --> 17:40.149 Hmm. 17:40.149 --> 17:45.250 You know, some distance between people, some struggles, everything was changing. 17:45.250 --> 17:45.310 Hmm. 17:45.909 --> 17:48.639 As people were seeing each other or as real people. 17:48.639 --> 17:53.325 I. So the change in pay, the structure, it worked. 17:53.325 --> 17:53.445 Mm-hmm. 17:53.745 --> 17:57.195 Within a year, all the team members were like, we can do this. 17:57.435 --> 17:58.455 We took that system away. 17:58.455 --> 18:02.775 We didn't need that anymore, but we kept the coaching, we kept the one-on-ones. 18:02.835 --> 18:06.345 We're saying to every manager, you're gonna sit down with every team member 18:06.675 --> 18:09.615 for 20 to 30 minutes every other week. 18:10.200 --> 18:13.470 You're gonna talk about how you can help them and what matters 18:13.470 --> 18:15.030 to them and how work is going. 18:15.030 --> 18:16.410 Just be there with them. 18:16.620 --> 18:17.130 Right. 18:17.220 --> 18:19.650 Gary Peterson: And a lot of 'em didn't wanna do it despite, you know, 18:19.650 --> 18:20.550 they've been having good experience. 18:20.550 --> 18:21.960 A lot of 'em were like, oh, I'm too busy. 18:21.960 --> 18:23.340 You know, I don't, I don't have time for that. 18:23.700 --> 18:24.750 What do you want me to drop? 18:25.020 --> 18:27.540 And I said repeatedly, I. I don't care what you drop, 18:30.060 --> 18:30.540 I don't care. 18:30.540 --> 18:31.530 Drop whatever you want. 18:31.800 --> 18:31.950 Yeah. 18:31.980 --> 18:34.530 Because, uh, this is what matters the most. 18:34.680 --> 18:35.040 McKinlay Otterson: Right. 18:35.040 --> 18:38.280 Gary Peterson: And to this day, this coaching system is one 18:38.280 --> 18:42.270 of our most important systems because it brings people together. 18:42.810 --> 18:46.650 I would say now that coaching capability is probably what we 18:46.650 --> 18:48.660 value the most in our management. 18:48.960 --> 18:48.990 Mm. 18:49.230 --> 18:49.710 Gary Peterson: You saw, right? 18:49.800 --> 18:50.400 Oh yeah. 18:50.400 --> 18:53.670 Managers are now coaches and teachers and mentors. 18:53.675 --> 18:53.905 Mm-hmm. 18:53.985 --> 18:54.945 They're very good at it. 18:55.260 --> 18:57.660 And they genuinely care about their people, and their 18:57.660 --> 18:59.310 people know that they care. 18:59.315 --> 18:59.385 Mm-hmm. 18:59.685 --> 19:02.970 So if I sit you down and talk through an issue with you, 19:02.970 --> 19:04.440 it's from a place of safety. 19:04.445 --> 19:04.745 Mm-hmm. 19:04.860 --> 19:08.850 You know, I have your best interest at heart, so let's talk candidly, right. 19:08.850 --> 19:09.870 Let's fix this issue. 19:10.355 --> 19:11.554 Crystal who came walking by. 19:11.554 --> 19:11.645 Mm-hmm. 19:11.885 --> 19:12.635 She's the manager. 19:12.965 --> 19:12.995 Okay. 19:12.995 --> 19:17.284 And she is spending 30 to 60 minutes now is our standard. 19:17.465 --> 19:17.645 Mm. 19:17.764 --> 19:20.794 Gary Peterson: Um, once a month though, 30 to 60 minutes once 19:20.794 --> 19:21.784 a month with every team member. 19:21.784 --> 19:24.935 She has about 20 team members on average. 19:24.935 --> 19:24.965 Okay. 19:25.294 --> 19:26.524 So that means every day. 19:26.530 --> 19:26.820 Mm-hmm. 19:26.899 --> 19:27.139 She's 19:27.300 --> 19:27.379 McKinlay Otterson: spending 19:27.635 --> 19:29.435 Gary Peterson: a 30 to 60 minutes of her day. 19:29.645 --> 19:30.875 Mm. With a member of her team. 19:31.115 --> 19:31.355 McKinlay Otterson: Wow. 19:31.804 --> 19:32.764 Gary Peterson: It's a big demand. 19:33.540 --> 19:36.990 McKinlay Otterson: So, Gary, talk more about this because when you said you 19:36.990 --> 19:40.139 know that there was some resistance of, what do you want me to drop? 19:40.139 --> 19:44.580 Like I have a whole schedule of things to do, and you said, I don't care 19:44.580 --> 19:48.540 what you drop because nothing is as important as these 30 minutes that 19:48.540 --> 19:49.800 you're spending with these team members. 19:50.250 --> 19:50.490 Right? 19:50.490 --> 19:52.290 That sends a really clear message. 19:52.320 --> 19:52.439 Gary Peterson: Yeah. 19:52.740 --> 19:53.250 McKinlay Otterson: Why? 19:54.510 --> 19:58.530 And did it take a minute for people to agree with you on that? 19:59.550 --> 20:00.600 Gary Peterson: It didn't take long. 20:00.600 --> 20:00.660 Hmm. 20:01.230 --> 20:04.170 I was actually saying at least once a month. 20:04.170 --> 20:05.400 Preferably every other week. 20:06.090 --> 20:06.180 Hmm. 20:06.180 --> 20:08.640 And the ones who were doing it every other week, were telling 20:08.640 --> 20:13.800 everybody else, all of these issues I'm reacting to are, are gone. 20:14.730 --> 20:15.720 They're disappearing. 20:16.050 --> 20:16.620 McKinlay Otterson: Interesting. 20:16.680 --> 20:18.150 Gary Peterson: There's nothing for me to solve. 20:21.810 --> 20:24.750 McKinlay Otterson: Leaders were experiencing this firsthand 20:25.020 --> 20:27.840 that spending time with our people wasn't just meaningful. 20:28.020 --> 20:30.870 It was giving them time back in their day. 20:31.380 --> 20:34.920 And for leaders, time is one of the scarcest resources. 20:35.190 --> 20:40.560 So seeing that investment in team members pay off by clearing away issues before 20:40.560 --> 20:43.500 they even occur is an incredible return. 20:43.890 --> 20:47.640 And Gary believed in this process and structure because he was seeing it work. 20:48.185 --> 20:52.205 But then he became the executive vice president and suddenly this idea 20:52.205 --> 20:56.345 that investing time in your people gives you time back wasn't as simple. 20:59.315 --> 21:02.645 Gary Peterson: When I became the executive vice president, the outgoing 21:02.645 --> 21:06.754 executive VP said to me, you're not gonna be able to spend as much time 21:06.995 --> 21:09.035 on the factory floor as you have been. 21:09.035 --> 21:12.335 You're gonna get sucked into strategy and to corporate things, 21:12.335 --> 21:14.525 and you just gotta set that aside. 21:15.335 --> 21:17.075 And I thought he was wrong. 21:17.575 --> 21:18.505 Turns out he was right. 21:19.015 --> 21:19.105 Mm-hmm. 21:19.105 --> 21:21.685 Gary Peterson: And then when I was getting to the floor, people were saying, 21:21.745 --> 21:23.275 oh, we missed you, where you been? 21:23.275 --> 21:27.385 And anyway, it was painful for me and I thought, you know. 21:27.915 --> 21:28.995 I'm good at strategy. 21:28.995 --> 21:33.945 I'm good at corporate stuff, but I think my time on the floor with people matters. 21:34.605 --> 21:39.255 I think one of my gifts is best manifest by me talking to people 21:39.255 --> 21:40.755 and being with people on the floor. 21:41.415 --> 21:44.175 So how do I prioritize my day? 21:44.175 --> 21:44.235 How? 21:44.410 --> 21:45.365 So that Right. 21:45.520 --> 21:46.360 I can get to the floor. 21:46.360 --> 21:50.980 So I, I made a list of, of all the things, all the gifts that I 21:50.980 --> 21:52.660 have, the, that I thought I had. 21:52.720 --> 21:52.810 Mm-hmm. 21:52.810 --> 21:53.770 This is what I'm good at. 21:53.770 --> 21:54.280 Mm-hmm. 21:54.385 --> 21:56.890 And then I shared it with my directors and vice presidents 21:56.890 --> 21:58.030 and they laughed me to scorn. 21:58.300 --> 22:01.510 But then, but then they agreed, you know, this is true, this is true. 22:01.510 --> 22:03.310 You know, that's, I don't know about that. 22:03.405 --> 22:04.930 You, you, you think you're good at that. 22:05.340 --> 22:07.560 And then I listed all the stuff that I'm doing. 22:07.560 --> 22:10.770 I tried to match 'em up and there were a bunch of things that didn't match 22:10.770 --> 22:12.659 up to what I brought to the table. 22:12.870 --> 22:13.020 Hmm. 22:13.470 --> 22:16.649 Gary Peterson: So I went back to my team and I said, Hey, so I matched this 22:16.649 --> 22:18.209 up and I think these things don't fit. 22:18.209 --> 22:19.800 I think I'm gonna stop doing these. 22:19.800 --> 22:21.870 So whoever wants to do 'em, you can grab 'em. 22:22.379 --> 22:26.189 And two thirds of 'em, people grab, I'll take this, I'll take this, I'll take that. 22:26.340 --> 22:26.610 Hmm. 22:27.000 --> 22:29.010 Gary Peterson: But there were like three or four things that nobody grabbed. 22:29.010 --> 22:29.070 Hmm. 22:30.209 --> 22:33.449 And I was like, well, so I'm gonna stop doing that. 22:35.305 --> 22:36.120 I was like, yeah. 22:36.990 --> 22:41.790 So it's like, oh my gosh, that would've been good to know. 22:42.000 --> 22:42.090 Yeah. 22:43.110 --> 22:45.930 That nobody cares that I do that. 22:46.050 --> 22:50.550 So I was able to jettison things off of my plate and instead put on my leader 22:50.550 --> 22:52.890 standard work, my daily activities. 22:53.190 --> 22:57.360 These are the things I'm going to do that make me more valuable to the company. 22:57.570 --> 22:57.630 Yeah. 22:58.280 --> 22:59.870 Gary Peterson: And so we all have that. 22:59.870 --> 23:02.240 Every person from Mary up mm-hmm. 23:02.480 --> 23:06.320 Has leader standard work, defining what matters. 23:06.379 --> 23:06.620 Hmm. 23:06.620 --> 23:07.580 And then tracking it. 23:08.240 --> 23:09.290 And you saw this. 23:09.959 --> 23:14.219 We don't spend hardly any time on interpersonal struggles 23:14.250 --> 23:15.179 on our factory floor. 23:15.540 --> 23:17.399 McKinlay Otterson: How much time do you think interpersonal 23:17.399 --> 23:19.290 issues was taking initially? 23:19.290 --> 23:19.320 Oh, 23:19.500 --> 23:23.100 Gary Peterson: I think it was taking all day and maybe not dealing 23:23.100 --> 23:26.399 with it all day, but all day long dealing with the ramifications 23:26.909 --> 23:27.030 of 23:27.030 --> 23:29.429 Gary Peterson: these three people who were in turmoil. 23:30.040 --> 23:30.370 Yeah, 23:31.000 --> 23:35.140 Gary Peterson: and the hit that gives on productivity in a four person sell 23:35.140 --> 23:36.670 when three of them aren't getting along 23:37.090 --> 23:37.390 McKinlay Otterson: right? 23:37.630 --> 23:40.360 Gary Peterson: We believe that the people closest to the job are the 23:40.360 --> 23:45.190 ones best suited to make improvements to the job and to drive the job. 23:45.610 --> 23:47.470 And if you're not seeing eye to eye. 23:48.030 --> 23:49.409 Then how do you do that together? 23:49.409 --> 23:51.870 Teams make better decisions than individuals do. 23:52.075 --> 23:52.155 Hmm. 23:52.440 --> 23:55.169 Gary Peterson: You get a good group of people together, especially if 23:55.169 --> 23:59.399 they're diverse, that you noticed on the floor were incredibly diverse. 23:59.399 --> 24:02.580 Different backgrounds, different upbringings, different 24:02.580 --> 24:04.139 languages, whatever it is. 24:04.350 --> 24:07.649 They come with a different view and that's, well, what are you thinking? 24:07.740 --> 24:07.860 You know? 24:07.860 --> 24:08.820 Wow, that's different than me. 24:08.820 --> 24:09.030 How? 24:09.120 --> 24:09.810 That's interesting. 24:09.810 --> 24:10.710 Say more about that. 24:11.129 --> 24:13.620 If I can get 'em talking like that, man. 24:13.889 --> 24:15.120 Good decision making. 24:15.120 --> 24:16.770 I had never even thought of it that way. 24:17.324 --> 24:17.804 You know what I mean? 24:17.864 --> 24:18.165 McKinlay Otterson: Right. 24:18.165 --> 24:22.185 But there's not gonna be that desire to even communicate like 24:22.185 --> 24:23.774 that if you're really annoyed. 24:23.774 --> 24:24.284 Gary Peterson: That's right. 24:24.614 --> 24:25.094 That's right. 24:25.125 --> 24:28.574 I'm not talking to you and now, oh, there's a problem here, but 24:28.574 --> 24:30.794 I, I can't talk to you about it because we're not speaking. 24:31.520 --> 24:32.985 Yeah, yeah. 24:32.985 --> 24:33.689 You know, so yeah. 24:34.094 --> 24:35.655 I think it's a big deal. 24:36.044 --> 24:38.895 McKinlay Otterson: How do you, as the leader, actually ensure that 24:38.895 --> 24:40.455 people are working in this way? 24:40.905 --> 24:43.815 Gary Peterson: In terms of this coaching, I say to everybody, 24:44.175 --> 24:45.645 this is what you need to do. 24:45.645 --> 24:46.935 This is what you're going to do. 24:47.235 --> 24:51.075 And then I go do something else for a month and I come back and two people 24:51.075 --> 24:54.195 have done it, which is probably your normal 18 people have not done it. 24:54.285 --> 24:54.375 Mm-hmm. 24:54.615 --> 24:58.665 Because they were just waiting to see if it was really gonna be a thing. 24:59.014 --> 25:01.985 And when I never asked about it for a month, they just let it slip. 25:02.524 --> 25:05.794 But now I try to say, look, I really want you to do it this next month. 25:05.794 --> 25:07.804 It is harder to get it going. 25:07.985 --> 25:13.745 It is much less effort to say to everybody, look, you're gonna coach at 25:13.745 --> 25:17.044 least once a month, preferably every two weeks, everybody for 30 to 60 25:17.044 --> 25:20.225 minutes, and then to come back two days later to circle around with everybody. 25:20.970 --> 25:23.850 You have 20 people, so you, you should have already done two. 25:24.270 --> 25:25.140 How's that coming? 25:25.740 --> 25:26.070 McKinlay Otterson: Right. 25:26.190 --> 25:28.950 Gary Peterson: And then the ones who haven't done any circle back the next day. 25:29.310 --> 25:32.190 It sounds like a lot, but it, it is a lot less effort. 25:32.190 --> 25:32.250 Yeah. 25:32.910 --> 25:35.700 Than waiting till the end of the month and trying to get it all. 25:35.970 --> 25:36.180 Yeah. 25:36.180 --> 25:36.420 Going 25:36.420 --> 25:36.630 Gary Peterson: again. 25:36.870 --> 25:38.280 I think momentum, 25:38.460 --> 25:38.760 yeah. 25:38.790 --> 25:40.470 Gary Peterson: Is the most important thing. 25:40.500 --> 25:44.640 Once you start doing something, if it's really right, you gotta stick with it. 25:44.995 --> 25:46.975 McKinlay Otterson: Did this momentum get picked up by other 25:46.975 --> 25:48.445 people in the organization? 25:48.745 --> 25:52.920 Because I'm just thinking that this is way more than just one person can do. 25:53.835 --> 25:57.915 Gary Peterson: I found rather than trying to change the whole organization 25:57.915 --> 26:02.865 at once, it was better to go to a, a group that was interested 26:03.345 --> 26:03.675 McKinlay Otterson: Yeah. 26:03.735 --> 26:06.885 Gary Peterson: And willing and who I could work with. 26:06.975 --> 26:07.095 Mm-hmm. 26:07.335 --> 26:11.274 Start to do excellent things and other people are like, I. That looks good. 26:11.274 --> 26:11.875 McKinlay Otterson: They're excited about it. 26:11.875 --> 26:12.504 Tell me about that. 26:12.504 --> 26:12.655 Yeah. 26:12.685 --> 26:12.774 You 26:12.774 --> 26:13.524 Gary Peterson: wanna do that? 26:13.824 --> 26:14.844 I can get them involved. 26:14.905 --> 26:16.855 And you're always gonna have your outliers. 26:16.885 --> 26:16.975 Mm-hmm. 26:17.274 --> 26:21.594 The caved dwellers and I spent too much time in the early days trying to convince 26:21.594 --> 26:23.875 the caved dwellers to, to get on the boat. 26:23.965 --> 26:25.764 I was in a big insurance company, Audis. 26:26.060 --> 26:29.389 Helping them with some of their continuous improvement ideas, and 26:29.389 --> 26:31.399 I was in a customer service huddle. 26:31.790 --> 26:36.230 There were about 20 some odd people, 17 of them, fully engaged. 26:36.230 --> 26:38.629 The manager or supervisor, I don't know who it was, was up there talking. 26:38.629 --> 26:39.590 Everyone was like, yeah. 26:39.889 --> 26:43.100 And then there were three people at the back with their arms folded there. 26:43.225 --> 26:45.805 Grumpy and they were just like scowling. 26:46.345 --> 26:47.245 And I just kept looking at 'em. 26:47.635 --> 26:50.605 'cause they were so different than the 17. 26:50.605 --> 26:50.695 Right. 26:51.264 --> 26:52.915 And the manager came down to me afterwards. 26:52.915 --> 26:56.155 I, I'm sorry, I noticed you saw my three, but I said No, no, sorry. 26:56.545 --> 26:58.254 I, I'm fascinated by them. 26:59.185 --> 27:03.024 They've lost, they used to control the narrative. 27:03.645 --> 27:06.945 They used to be the ones who, oh, come on, everybody like, yeah, 27:07.185 --> 27:10.215 what she says and, and they can't figure out how they lost it. 27:10.365 --> 27:11.715 How did this slip away from me? 27:12.075 --> 27:15.300 And now all of a sudden there's 17 people who don't care what they think. 27:16.050 --> 27:18.735 Yeah, they really only have two options at this point. 27:19.065 --> 27:23.235 They can either get on board or they can go work for some other company who is 27:23.235 --> 27:25.485 fine with the scowling and the growling. 27:26.265 --> 27:30.255 Now, I do think it is totally legit after that huddle to go 27:30.255 --> 27:31.965 to them individually and say. 27:32.490 --> 27:33.090 How are you doing? 27:33.540 --> 27:33.990 You on in? 27:34.965 --> 27:35.865 Can I get you in? 27:35.865 --> 27:36.915 How can I help you in 27:36.945 --> 27:37.245 McKinlay Otterson: Right. 27:37.485 --> 27:38.385 Give them an invitation. 27:38.385 --> 27:38.655 Gary Peterson: Yeah. 27:38.655 --> 27:40.034 I think you gotta keep inviting. 27:40.334 --> 27:42.495 Then they get to choose, you know, I don't want in. 27:42.824 --> 27:48.074 And, um, the people who don't want in to something like that, I worry 27:48.074 --> 27:50.175 there's something wrong in their life. 27:50.324 --> 27:54.165 They need someone to pay attention to them and to show that they're interested 27:54.495 --> 27:54.764 right. 27:54.764 --> 27:54.885 In 27:54.885 --> 27:55.695 Gary Peterson: what's going on. 27:55.695 --> 27:55.784 Right. 27:56.385 --> 27:59.264 Sometimes they're not in a position to talk about it. 27:59.380 --> 28:01.420 You know, and that's fair, right? 28:01.420 --> 28:01.990 Life's tough. 28:02.410 --> 28:06.520 But where you gotta spend time as these people who are like, let's try it. 28:06.640 --> 28:07.570 Yeah, let's do it. 28:08.260 --> 28:08.890 Yeah, I love it. 28:08.890 --> 28:10.180 You know, let's talk about it. 28:10.180 --> 28:10.270 Mm-hmm. 28:10.505 --> 28:13.240 Because they build momentum and they attract people. 28:13.240 --> 28:13.300 I. 28:15.419 --> 28:18.810 McKinlay Otterson: Big changes do not happen because everybody 28:18.810 --> 28:19.980 gets on board right away. 28:20.429 --> 28:24.600 Those big changes happen from the work of a small group of highly influential 28:24.600 --> 28:29.490 people who create energy around the change, which invites people in, builds 28:29.490 --> 28:33.629 more momentum, and gradually invites more and more people into that process. 28:34.445 --> 28:37.715 But an important component of momentum is making sure that 28:37.715 --> 28:40.175 the right things are in motion. 28:40.805 --> 28:43.805 At the Arbinger Institute, we talk about that as measuring our 28:43.805 --> 28:47.645 impact and adjusting our efforts based on the impact we're having. 28:48.125 --> 28:50.765 Because without those elements of measuring and adjusting, 28:51.155 --> 28:53.105 it's really hard to innovate. 28:53.735 --> 28:57.425 So Gary talks about this in context of why it's important to have those 28:57.425 --> 29:01.805 consistent check-ins while you're in the process of facilitating change. 29:02.475 --> 29:07.425 Gary Peterson: If you're not there and present and something's going wrong, 29:07.725 --> 29:07.995 McKinlay Otterson: Hmm. 29:08.085 --> 29:10.365 Gary Peterson: Like the instruction I've given isn't quite right. 29:10.785 --> 29:11.235 McKinlay Otterson: Okay. 29:11.235 --> 29:11.295 All 29:11.295 --> 29:11.475 Gary Peterson: right. 29:11.475 --> 29:14.445 So it's, it's, it's not, it's not hitting on all cylinders. 29:14.445 --> 29:16.815 It's a little bit uncomfortable if I'm not right there. 29:16.815 --> 29:17.535 I can't see that. 29:17.535 --> 29:18.405 I can't hear that. 29:18.405 --> 29:20.415 People can't talk about, we can't adjust it. 29:20.610 --> 29:21.120 McKinlay Otterson: Right. 29:21.540 --> 29:24.840 Gary Peterson: Instead, I leave them all month to struggle with this 29:24.840 --> 29:28.860 idea that really wasn't fully formed and wasn't really thought through. 29:29.040 --> 29:29.129 Mm-hmm. 29:29.370 --> 29:33.179 So if you really believe in continuous improvement, you've gotta be willing 29:33.179 --> 29:36.750 to put something out there and then the next day challenge it. 29:37.725 --> 29:39.284 Is that as best we can do? 29:40.095 --> 29:42.585 What did you find when you tried to apply it? 29:43.155 --> 29:44.804 That is better than what I told you. 29:44.810 --> 29:45.070 McKinlay Otterson: Yeah. 29:45.370 --> 29:47.445 Gary Peterson: You know, Hey everybody, she said, let's listen to this. 29:47.895 --> 29:49.395 This is what, what she learned yesterday. 29:49.395 --> 29:50.054 What do you think? 29:50.054 --> 29:51.014 You know, and everyone's talking. 29:51.014 --> 29:51.975 Yeah, I found that too. 29:52.185 --> 29:53.085 Should we do that? 29:53.504 --> 29:55.245 You know, that's part of the momentum building. 29:55.245 --> 29:57.735 It's, it's, you gotta be in it if you really care about it. 29:57.735 --> 29:58.215 McKinlay Otterson: Mm-hmm. 29:58.995 --> 30:00.705 Have there been setbacks? 30:00.825 --> 30:05.685 Have there been things that are like, oh, we shouldn't have done it this way, 30:05.685 --> 30:08.175 or This has made things harder, or, 30:08.235 --> 30:09.615 Gary Peterson: yeah, I've been a ton of setbacks. 30:09.855 --> 30:14.055 We made so many mistakes, so many errors, but you know, I think that 30:14.235 --> 30:15.855 it also gave us a ton of growth. 30:16.365 --> 30:17.925 I made a huge mistake one time. 30:17.925 --> 30:19.215 I was in a tough spot. 30:19.725 --> 30:23.595 I ended up hurting a, a woman who was trying to challenge what we were doing, 30:23.595 --> 30:26.745 and I was too scared to acknowledge. 30:27.460 --> 30:32.409 And, um, in the end, I had to apologize and she wouldn't 30:32.409 --> 30:33.610 make herself available to me. 30:33.610 --> 30:37.060 So when I apologized, I was really apologizing to her whole department. 30:37.840 --> 30:44.949 And the only thing that made sense by way of excuse was I don't know what I'm doing. 30:46.335 --> 30:51.795 And so here, here, I fought her initially because I felt vulnerable and the only way 30:51.795 --> 30:53.925 out was to make myself more vulnerable. 30:54.225 --> 30:54.855 Yeah, 30:55.125 --> 30:56.175 Gary Peterson: I mean, I tried for days. 30:56.175 --> 31:01.890 Those are for days to come up with a way I. To say it where I didn't become more 31:01.890 --> 31:03.690 vulnerable and it just, it wasn't real. 31:03.750 --> 31:04.590 It wasn't the truth. 31:04.590 --> 31:08.730 It didn't make any sense why I would behave the way I did if that 31:08.730 --> 31:10.350 was really the reason, you know? 31:10.740 --> 31:10.860 Yeah. 31:10.950 --> 31:14.070 So I go in there, I make myself completely vulnerable to these uh, 31:14.100 --> 31:17.895 people, and I thought, I. Blood in the water, you know, I was waiting for 31:17.895 --> 31:24.405 the pitchforks and torches, you know, to come and give me, and instead, the 31:24.405 --> 31:30.975 two most powerful team members on that team came to my office and they said, 31:30.975 --> 31:35.085 Hey, so I'm, I'm listening you describe this problem you're trying to solve. 31:35.565 --> 31:36.345 What if. 31:36.840 --> 31:38.850 They came up with a possible solution. 31:39.330 --> 31:43.950 This was a couple years into our journey and it was quite honestly the first 31:43.950 --> 31:49.440 time that people had tried to just, let me tell you what I think we should do. 31:49.770 --> 31:54.930 It was the first time, and uh, I, I said, well, are there people that 31:54.930 --> 31:57.450 you're working with who would like to try to help you implement that? 31:57.450 --> 31:59.670 Yeah, there were like five of, well, do you guys wanna try it? 31:59.940 --> 32:01.050 And they went and did it. 32:01.440 --> 32:02.310 It didn't work. 32:03.120 --> 32:04.500 So they tried something else. 32:04.500 --> 32:05.730 And what are you guys doing? 32:06.100 --> 32:10.840 It was like a, an atomic explosion in the sense that everyone's 32:10.840 --> 32:14.620 seen and everyone starts picking stuff up and running with stuff. 32:14.620 --> 32:15.040 Why? 32:15.040 --> 32:17.290 Because turns out Gary doesn't know what he's doing. 32:19.750 --> 32:22.149 McKinlay Otterson: So we might actually be able to contribute here. 32:22.155 --> 32:22.780 Maybe, maybe 32:22.780 --> 32:24.520 Gary Peterson: we ought to get involved. 32:25.060 --> 32:28.899 And, uh, what I taught was I taught principles that we were trying to follow. 32:28.899 --> 32:31.270 What I didn't know how to do is how to actually apply, how 32:31.270 --> 32:32.860 to make the principle work. 32:33.495 --> 32:37.725 Me making myself vulnerable was the beginning of everybody taking 32:37.725 --> 32:40.335 ownership and it spread like wildfire. 32:40.395 --> 32:42.615 And of course a lot of preparation. 32:42.675 --> 32:47.145 It probably wouldn't have worked if I had done that three years earlier. 32:47.475 --> 32:47.775 Right. 32:48.045 --> 32:50.565 Gary Peterson: But now we've gotten to a critical place where we had 32:50.565 --> 32:52.065 solved a lot of other issues. 32:52.065 --> 32:54.975 We had taught a lot of problem solving methodologies. 32:55.035 --> 32:57.945 We built a lot of things and the people were ready to take off. 32:58.485 --> 33:04.455 I think mistakes became a big part of what drove us to becoming better. 33:04.665 --> 33:05.175 McKinlay Otterson: Yeah. 33:05.534 --> 33:07.935 That they maybe were setbacks initially, but then they 33:07.935 --> 33:09.854 actually helped the momentum. 33:10.004 --> 33:10.935 Gary Peterson: Yeah, I think so. 33:15.450 --> 33:18.090 McKinlay Otterson: It is so cool to learn about how all of this 33:18.090 --> 33:22.200 started and how mistakes were actually the origin of their change. 33:22.500 --> 33:28.020 Because you see a company like OC Tanner and you think we will never get there, 33:28.590 --> 33:30.810 but they've been at this for a while. 33:31.179 --> 33:35.860 So for me, hearing how all of it started helps me remember that as rare as 33:35.860 --> 33:38.530 their culture is, it isn't impossible. 33:38.830 --> 33:40.719 You can replicate this. 33:41.409 --> 33:44.020 Gary Peterson: So everyone who comes in here on a tour, I have a 33:44.020 --> 33:46.810 timeline of all the things we've done over the last 30 years. 33:46.990 --> 33:47.290 McKinlay Otterson: Cool. 33:47.379 --> 33:50.320 Gary Peterson: And about seven years in, there's the arbiter training. 33:50.370 --> 33:53.760 And I say to them, you know, are you familiar with this outward 33:53.760 --> 33:55.949 mindset, leadership, self deception? 33:55.949 --> 33:58.020 You know, and some people, and there's usually a few people like, 33:58.020 --> 33:59.159 I know what you're talking about. 33:59.159 --> 34:05.550 And I say this makes a big difference because people just know I'm supposed 34:05.550 --> 34:06.870 to treat people the right way. 34:06.870 --> 34:08.460 I'm supposed to see people the right way. 34:09.089 --> 34:10.139 And um. 34:10.509 --> 34:11.859 Man, it just makes everything easy. 34:30.930 --> 34:33.750 McKinlay Otterson: Leading Outward is produced by the Arbinger Institute 34:34.320 --> 34:37.470 to have a conversation about how we can equip you to transform 34:37.470 --> 34:39.060 your leaders and organization. 34:39.480 --> 34:43.170 Schedule a complimentary strategy session@arbinger.com. 34:43.924 --> 34:46.985 And whatever came to mind for you while you were listening, a 34:46.985 --> 34:50.165 conversation you've been putting off, or feedback that needs to be shared 34:50.554 --> 34:53.074 action, you need to take, don't wait. 34:53.404 --> 34:57.335 Take that action because that's how change starts.