WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:04.470 Jeremy: I've only been in this company four years now, and a lot of 00:04.470 --> 00:07.530 the folks in our company started at the bottom and worked their way up. 00:09.300 --> 00:11.670 Victoria Trammel: This is Jeremy, the Vice President of Construction at an 00:11.670 --> 00:13.230 engineering and construction company. 00:13.530 --> 00:16.380 He's working with Chip youth, an Arbinger coach to navigate his 00:16.380 --> 00:17.939 current leadership challenges. 00:18.750 --> 00:23.400 Before joining his current organization, Jeremy logged 24 years in the US Navy 00:23.640 --> 00:26.939 developing many of the skills he needed to be successful in his new role. 00:27.659 --> 00:32.250 However, even four years into his position, he still feels like an outsider. 00:32.519 --> 00:35.129 Like his experience isn't being recognized. 00:35.550 --> 00:38.250 Jeremy: And so I'm kind of the first one that's come in at a senior 00:38.250 --> 00:42.599 leadership role, and that may be to my detriment, uh, in their mind as well. 00:42.870 --> 00:45.660 Uh, discounting all of the stuff that I've done in my past. 00:46.485 --> 00:48.404 Victoria Trammel: Through the course of their time together, Jeremy and 00:48.404 --> 00:52.485 Chip explore the mindset that causes, in Jeremy's case avoidance, a lack 00:52.485 --> 00:57.105 of curiosity and self-doubt that can keep even seasoned leaders stuck. 00:59.504 --> 01:02.025 The idea behind these coaching episodes of leading outward is 01:02.025 --> 01:06.405 that you can see some of yourself in Jeremy, that his struggles are. 01:06.435 --> 01:10.425 All of our struggles, and that through direct and honest, introspection, 01:10.425 --> 01:14.985 dialogue and action, we're capable of the change needed to transform 01:14.985 --> 01:17.145 our workplaces and ourselves. 01:26.115 --> 01:29.955 Welcome to Leading Outward, the Arbinger Institute's podcast, where we explore 01:29.955 --> 01:34.125 the tools and ideas we've used for over 45 years to help people solve their 01:34.125 --> 01:38.414 toughest leadership and organizational challenges by leading with an outward 01:38.414 --> 01:40.725 mindset, seeing people as people. 01:41.804 --> 01:45.074 I'm Victoria Trammell, an Arbinger facilitator, and I'll be here as a 01:45.074 --> 01:46.994 guide throughout this coaching episode. 01:47.505 --> 01:50.865 While the actual coaching takes place between Jeremy and Chip sometimes. 01:50.865 --> 01:54.164 Times I'll pop in and chat directly with Chip to help us unpack everything. 01:59.684 --> 02:02.324 Chip Huth: How do you feel about being the only person to come into 02:02.324 --> 02:06.945 the organization from the outside and step into a senior leadership role? 02:07.304 --> 02:11.084 Jeremy: I was told on day one it's gonna be a huge challenge and uh, 02:11.115 --> 02:13.845 four years later I'm maybe 50% there. 02:14.295 --> 02:15.255 It has been a challenge. 02:15.255 --> 02:21.195 What's frustrating is, you know, I've got 24 years of military experience 02:21.195 --> 02:27.015 that ties directly to our operations, but it just gets discounted. 02:27.195 --> 02:31.845 It's not, it's not looked upon as value, um, to a lot of people in 02:31.845 --> 02:35.445 the organization because I didn't grow up in this organization. 02:35.445 --> 02:39.165 So it's very challenging for me, and I've spent a lot of time 02:39.225 --> 02:43.815 building relationships, building trust, being there for the team. 02:44.369 --> 02:48.779 And, uh, I, I think after four years I see the fruits of my 02:48.779 --> 02:50.190 labor, but it's been a challenge. 02:50.880 --> 02:53.160 Chip Huth: How do you feel when people discount your experience? 02:53.250 --> 02:54.329 I mean, 24 years. 02:54.329 --> 02:56.010 That's very impressive. 02:56.519 --> 03:02.310 Jeremy: It extremely frustrating and I try to be humble about it and 03:02.850 --> 03:04.709 look at it from their perspective. 03:05.190 --> 03:07.320 They don't know what I did in the military. 03:07.469 --> 03:09.570 Um, I can talk about it, but they don't know. 03:09.570 --> 03:10.589 They don't understand. 03:11.130 --> 03:13.649 So I just continue to. 03:14.025 --> 03:19.725 Be there for the team, um, being a leader as I always have been, but 03:19.725 --> 03:25.364 it personally, it's very challenging when my past is discounted. 03:26.295 --> 03:29.445 Victoria Trammel: Man, I resonate so much with what Jeremy's talking about here. 03:29.775 --> 03:34.335 So even coming to Arbinger, right, none of my previous experience I 03:34.335 --> 03:36.255 felt like was at all applicable. 03:36.435 --> 03:41.415 And so I took this posture of like, I, not only my new kid on the block, I don't have 03:41.415 --> 03:43.845 any experience or expertise in this area. 03:44.175 --> 03:47.865 And so everything that I've done in my career up until this point, 03:48.705 --> 03:52.035 not that it's worthless, but it, it certainly did not carry. 03:52.440 --> 03:54.630 A whole lot of value stepping into this role. 03:54.810 --> 03:59.010 And so because of that, everything was from this worse than perspective. 03:59.220 --> 04:02.370 So if somebody had an idea that was different than mine, it was 04:02.370 --> 04:03.450 like, well, they must know better. 04:03.720 --> 04:04.050 Right? 04:04.050 --> 04:06.480 So I, I can't be a part of this 'cause they, they certainly have a 04:06.480 --> 04:08.130 better idea more so than I would. 04:08.820 --> 04:13.200 Whereas in previous roles, when I was in the same kind of industry, it was very 04:13.200 --> 04:18.210 similar where it was like, how dare you discount what I'm bringing to the table? 04:18.690 --> 04:19.320 And. 04:19.875 --> 04:21.165 What makes you think that? 04:21.165 --> 04:22.335 I don't already know that. 04:22.515 --> 04:28.305 And I would show up that way so often, like before I even would start meetings, 04:28.305 --> 04:32.865 like I would already have this brewing sense of like, just wait, just wait. 04:32.895 --> 04:36.225 They're gonna try to explain to me something that I already know and they're 04:36.225 --> 04:37.965 gonna pretend like I don't know it. 04:39.345 --> 04:42.855 And I, I think back on those experiences and I'm like, man, I 04:42.855 --> 04:45.885 can only imagine what it was like to be with me in those meetings. 04:46.545 --> 04:49.515 Chip Huth: When you're coming into a new context, you're carrying 04:49.515 --> 04:51.405 all that experience with you. 04:51.795 --> 04:55.425 And I know it has been for me in the past, Vic, it's really hard to go from 04:55.425 --> 05:00.255 being the expert to kind of being the go-to person, the person who has the 05:00.255 --> 05:03.195 solution and answers to being the new guy. 05:03.945 --> 05:05.865 I do think this is fairly common. 05:06.555 --> 05:08.655 Uh, it's exacerbated when we're inward. 05:09.450 --> 05:12.780 When we take an outward perspective and we can think about the mission and what 05:12.840 --> 05:17.610 I'm obligated to provide to my employer and my team, I can set that aside. 05:17.610 --> 05:23.190 I can even acknowledge it openly and talk openly about it in such 05:23.190 --> 05:26.370 a way that it actually takes the power away from that insecurity to 05:26.370 --> 05:28.080 undermine and invite self focus. 05:29.250 --> 05:32.460 So if I'm hearing you correctly, what triggers your frustration 05:32.460 --> 05:33.780 is the fact that you feel. 05:34.500 --> 05:38.010 They don't have what you consider to be due regard for your prior 05:38.010 --> 05:39.330 experience, which is extensive. 05:39.690 --> 05:42.630 Tell me about a time when you didn't know the things you needed to know 05:42.870 --> 05:44.190 and when you felt judged for it. 05:44.220 --> 05:45.750 When you felt minimized for it. 05:45.750 --> 05:46.740 Diminished in some way. 05:48.240 --> 05:49.320 Jeremy: Oh, that happened today. 05:49.440 --> 05:51.150 Can I use that recently example? 05:51.630 --> 05:52.110 Chip Huth: Please do. 05:57.660 --> 06:04.860 Jeremy: I asked the question why we had divided one crew amongst two 06:04.860 --> 06:11.340 crews, and uh, it's a very operational kind of in the weeds question. 06:11.790 --> 06:16.200 And the superintendent looked at me and said, where in the hell what 06:16.200 --> 06:17.700 rock have you been hiding under? 06:18.180 --> 06:23.370 We had four people on this crew fail at drug tests, so we had to take 'em off the 06:23.370 --> 06:28.080 crew, and we didn't have enough people to do the job, so we had to take one crew and 06:28.080 --> 06:30.360 fill in the other crews and divide it up. 06:30.360 --> 06:32.040 And I said, well, that makes sense. 06:32.040 --> 06:35.250 But I, I guess I just wasn't privy to that. 06:35.250 --> 06:36.120 I didn't know. 06:36.540 --> 06:41.490 And so I was ignorant to the situation and, um, it was pointed 06:41.490 --> 06:44.640 out to me and, uh, like you're right. 06:45.840 --> 06:47.430 I'm sorry, I didn't know that. 06:47.430 --> 06:51.000 I, I don't know if I've been asleep at the wheel or maybe I didn't need 06:51.000 --> 06:54.870 to know that, but I said thank you for taking care of it, meeting the mission. 06:55.440 --> 06:58.440 I just didn't know what I was pointed out very clearly. 06:58.440 --> 07:00.120 Like, what rock have you been hiding under? 07:01.095 --> 07:03.465 Chip Huth: Yeah, that's pretty, pretty interesting. 07:04.320 --> 07:05.190 Way to deliver feedback. 07:07.080 --> 07:07.920 How'd that make you feel? 07:10.230 --> 07:13.770 Jeremy: Inadequate as a leader, like, I oversee construction 07:13.770 --> 07:14.700 and I didn't know that. 07:15.300 --> 07:22.560 Um, I, I didn't feel, uh, I didn't feel good when somebody 07:22.560 --> 07:23.880 called me out blatantly. 07:24.480 --> 07:25.715 What rock have you been hiding under? 07:32.445 --> 07:35.085 Chip Huth: What else do they do that that might drive your frustration? 07:35.594 --> 07:39.075 Jeremy: Um, if, if it's an issue or a challenge that we're facing 07:39.525 --> 07:42.104 and I just get, you need to fix it. 07:43.155 --> 07:45.765 Help me understand what I need to fix, what's the problem? 07:45.914 --> 07:47.955 What's the history, what's the context of it? 07:48.975 --> 07:53.265 An example of that was recently we had some material stolen from a 07:53.265 --> 07:58.275 job site, and all I was told was, you need to file a police report. 07:58.905 --> 08:03.105 There was a whole bunch of other context around this situation, but 08:03.105 --> 08:07.755 all I got was you need to file a police report, and then as we dig into 08:07.755 --> 08:09.945 it, there's a lot more information. 08:09.945 --> 08:12.315 There could be some nefarious things going on. 08:12.525 --> 08:14.415 There could be more people involved. 08:15.000 --> 08:16.500 But I wasn't given that information. 08:16.500 --> 08:21.659 I was just given some material, was stolen, file a police report, and it's 08:21.659 --> 08:26.490 taken me a few, few weeks to dig into that, to find out more information. 08:27.150 --> 08:30.390 I don't know that I have the rock bottom truth, but there's a lot more to that. 08:30.750 --> 08:35.880 And uh, I know that the information was known at the time, but I was 08:35.880 --> 08:37.140 just told to file a police report. 08:37.140 --> 08:37.199 Hmm. 08:38.520 --> 08:41.340 Chip Huth: I could see how that might help someone feel excluded. 08:42.059 --> 08:42.390 Yes. 08:43.049 --> 08:44.189 So I'm curious, um. 08:45.210 --> 08:48.780 When you're getting this information kind of on a drip, maybe it feels like 08:48.780 --> 08:54.600 it's been edited or attenuated in some way, what do you think is driving that? 08:54.840 --> 08:59.340 What's driving their, what appears to be their tendency to not give you 08:59.340 --> 09:01.530 the full story if you had to guess? 09:02.430 --> 09:07.740 Jeremy: If I had to guess, and how I perceive it is, you know, in our 09:07.740 --> 09:11.550 industry, the guy that runs the screw on the back of the paver, right, they, 09:11.609 --> 09:14.910 they started running the screw and they know how to lay a mat of asphalt 09:14.910 --> 09:16.500 and they've grown up in the industry. 09:16.920 --> 09:18.180 Well, I've never ran the screw. 09:18.810 --> 09:26.280 And our company, uh, is a very hub and spoke communication and 09:26.280 --> 09:28.320 direction type organization. 09:28.320 --> 09:34.800 So there's a lot of phone calls that are made to individuals back and forth and 09:34.860 --> 09:38.940 uh, I always joke around that I'm not in the information Super highway because 09:38.940 --> 09:43.830 I'm not on my phone getting phone calls all the time on getting the information. 09:43.860 --> 09:45.360 And over the last four years. 09:46.215 --> 09:50.715 I've slowly merged into the information superhighway, but it, but it's been 09:50.715 --> 09:54.645 a challenge and I think that is the, the reason why I just get the drip. 09:55.515 --> 09:57.345 I'm not in people's mind. 09:57.345 --> 10:03.375 The first one, they got a call or call to catch up or just call to chitchat. 10:03.885 --> 10:09.105 You know the people that have been here 10, 15, 20, 30 years, that's what 10:09.105 --> 10:10.365 they know and that's what they do. 10:10.890 --> 10:15.600 And so I've tried very diligently to ease my way in there and 10:15.780 --> 10:18.900 just make phone calls and the conversation and the building trust. 10:19.199 --> 10:24.540 It's not my style, but I've tried, uh, very hard to, uh, do that more and more 10:25.589 --> 10:28.110 Victoria Trammel: chip, as I'm listening to Jeremy talk about 10:28.110 --> 10:31.530 this, and he's talking about how he doesn't know how to do these things. 10:32.775 --> 10:36.645 I think back there was a, a position that I held where I was deputy 10:36.645 --> 10:39.765 program manager on this massive software development contract. 10:40.425 --> 10:45.315 And I was not feeling, I was, I was about to, oh, see. 10:45.735 --> 10:46.125 Tricky. 10:46.125 --> 10:48.345 I was about to say I wasn't part of the inner circle. 10:48.345 --> 10:51.495 I. I was not feeling a part of the inner circle. 10:51.795 --> 10:55.185 And so what I said to myself was, well, that's because I've 10:55.185 --> 10:56.565 never been a software developer. 10:56.565 --> 10:58.155 I don't have a technical degree. 10:58.155 --> 11:00.555 I don't have an advanced degree in a technical field. 11:00.585 --> 11:03.615 And so until any of those things have happened, no one 11:03.615 --> 11:05.145 is gonna take me seriously. 11:05.565 --> 11:09.705 And so what I did then in response was remove myself from those conversations. 11:09.705 --> 11:10.125 Maybe not. 11:10.140 --> 11:14.939 Physically, but certainly mentally and emotionally because they're 11:14.939 --> 11:16.290 not gonna take me seriously anyway. 11:16.290 --> 11:18.750 I'm not a part of this inner circle because I haven't done all of 11:18.750 --> 11:20.160 these things in a technical field. 11:20.730 --> 11:24.330 Therefore, I'm not gonna understand what they're talking about because 11:24.330 --> 11:25.560 they're not gonna explain it to me. 11:26.580 --> 11:28.650 They don't think that I'm worthy of their time. 11:33.285 --> 11:34.705 Chip Huth: That's super powerful, Vic. 11:34.920 --> 11:39.030 Up to this point, the problem has been people aren't including him. 11:39.600 --> 11:41.340 People are dismissive of him. 11:41.370 --> 11:42.780 Like he's seen that as the problem. 11:43.800 --> 11:46.110 But now he's recognizing, you know, the problem is, and you know, 11:46.110 --> 11:49.410 this metaphor of the information superhighway, that's pretty telling. 11:50.250 --> 11:54.510 There's some passivity implied there in the way that he's considering being 11:54.510 --> 11:56.490 part of this information network. 11:56.490 --> 11:56.640 Right? 11:56.640 --> 11:59.165 He says, you know, he's been trying to get on the highway. 12:00.675 --> 12:01.455 So it's you. 12:01.635 --> 12:03.975 You see the, you see the passive nature of that is like, well, look, 12:04.305 --> 12:08.175 until people start inviting me into this network, I'm not gonna 12:08.175 --> 12:09.315 have the information that I need. 12:09.495 --> 12:12.165 The reason they're not reaching out to me and giving me the information 12:12.165 --> 12:13.425 is 'cause I haven't ran the screw. 12:13.545 --> 12:14.595 I'm not part of the team. 12:15.615 --> 12:19.665 And what that allows 'em to do is to evade his responsibility for being 12:20.565 --> 12:26.235 intentional about becoming part of the team by reaching out and getting curious. 12:27.045 --> 12:28.335 He doesn't have to be curious. 12:29.175 --> 12:30.975 He sets back and waits for people to come to him. 12:31.425 --> 12:36.465 He can use the excuse quite effectively of them not coming to him as all 12:36.465 --> 12:39.615 the reason he needs for not learning the things that he needs to know. 12:40.185 --> 12:46.755 And all that is to say that when I'm carrying around this storyline 12:47.115 --> 12:52.785 and the storyline goes something like I'm the kind of person who 12:53.775 --> 12:55.455 already is an expert in this field. 12:56.895 --> 13:02.865 Then that disin invites me to ask questions that might be considered naive 13:03.465 --> 13:05.355 if asked by an expert in that field. 13:06.195 --> 13:09.435 So instead, I just sit back and I wait for people to, to invite me 13:09.435 --> 13:11.715 in, and they don't invite me in, which tells me they're the problem. 13:11.985 --> 13:14.175 And then I come up with reasons why they're not inviting me in. 13:14.175 --> 13:18.645 And of course the obvious reason is that, uh, you know, they just don't value me. 13:19.574 --> 13:21.435 Victoria Trammel: And I think that's the power, the destructive 13:21.435 --> 13:22.965 power of an inward mindset, right? 13:22.965 --> 13:24.194 Because I'm thinking about it. 13:24.855 --> 13:30.675 Not only is he creating reasons why people are not including them, I would 13:30.675 --> 13:35.145 argue that he's also over-inflating the requirements in order to be 13:35.145 --> 13:37.064 invited into this organization. 13:37.485 --> 13:39.375 It's not that I just have to understand. 13:39.375 --> 13:41.835 I haven't done this one job. 13:42.015 --> 13:44.715 I haven't driven the screw, therefore. 13:45.480 --> 13:50.339 I can't be a part of this, which is what I think is so tricky about Inwardness. 13:51.300 --> 13:53.790 Chip Huth: You said, um, you've never ran the screw. 13:53.880 --> 13:54.600 Did I get that right? 13:55.140 --> 13:55.410 Yep. 13:55.650 --> 13:56.579 Never ran the screw. 13:57.510 --> 13:58.319 You've been there how many years? 13:58.319 --> 13:58.740 Four. 13:59.310 --> 13:59.939 Four years. 14:00.569 --> 14:05.010 What's held you back from learning more about the technical side of the operation? 14:05.010 --> 14:05.069 I. 14:10.620 --> 14:12.360 Jeremy: Really no excuse time. 14:12.480 --> 14:14.550 Uh, I go once a week. 14:14.550 --> 14:19.080 I do dedicate a day to go out and spend with the crews and ask questions 14:19.080 --> 14:23.640 and learn and make sure I understand, uh, what the cruise challenges 14:23.640 --> 14:25.680 are and how I could help them. 14:26.160 --> 14:27.420 Um, but 14:28.770 --> 14:29.610 Chip Huth: really time. 14:30.660 --> 14:33.810 What other things take up your time, other priorities. 14:34.470 --> 14:38.730 Things that are more important than having a better sense of the technical skills 14:38.730 --> 14:42.300 of the people that you lead, what are the priorities get in the way of that? 14:43.080 --> 14:48.150 Jeremy: Uh, any one of the other divisions that I oversee, finances, 14:48.810 --> 14:53.175 operations, making sure that we're out bidding work and winning work 14:53.175 --> 14:54.840 so that we can create a backlog. 14:55.440 --> 14:57.930 Logistics safety for the company. 14:58.500 --> 15:02.580 Continuous improvement, uh, media relationships. 15:02.730 --> 15:07.020 You know, it's quite the gamut of things that, uh, consume time. 15:08.220 --> 15:09.000 I'm the new guy. 15:09.570 --> 15:12.540 I got about, in my estimation about eight more years and then, 15:12.570 --> 15:13.590 then I won't be the new guy 15:14.580 --> 15:15.150 Chip Huth: eight years. 15:15.150 --> 15:16.350 So you're gonna wait eight years? 15:18.360 --> 15:18.540 No. 15:18.900 --> 15:21.150 Learn more about, what do you say? 15:23.520 --> 15:28.740 Jeremy: It, it's our, uh, it's our culture that, you know, until you 15:28.740 --> 15:32.370 hit the 10 or 12 year mark, you're the new guy in our organization. 15:33.390 --> 15:34.230 Chip Huth: That's convenient. 15:34.949 --> 15:35.370 Yeah. 15:36.360 --> 15:38.310 I mean, the new guy's not really expected to know a lot. 15:39.390 --> 15:39.660 Jeremy: Yeah. 15:39.720 --> 15:41.130 Well, and that's part of it. 15:41.130 --> 15:45.630 How can the new guy come in and be in a senior role? 15:46.890 --> 15:47.130 Right. 15:47.579 --> 15:53.220 Just, it hasn't happened in our company prior to me, and so it's, 15:53.220 --> 15:55.350 uh, it's new for a lot of people. 16:00.569 --> 16:02.520 Chip Huth: People are aware of your accomplishments in the military. 16:02.520 --> 16:03.360 They're aware of your record. 16:03.360 --> 16:05.939 Now they, you may feel like they give that short shrift, but they know, 16:06.569 --> 16:08.490 they know why you were brought in. 16:08.730 --> 16:10.500 I just wonder to what degree they might feel. 16:11.100 --> 16:14.970 That you really haven't transitioned out of the Navy. 16:15.840 --> 16:18.240 You're not fully here, you're not fully present. 16:18.240 --> 16:22.950 You're not fully in this job because you haven't shown a degree of interest 16:22.950 --> 16:27.360 in what they do, and really getting super curious about the technical 16:27.360 --> 16:31.050 aspects of the job, the aspects of the job that depend on you doing your job. 16:31.765 --> 16:34.854 In order for them to be able to do those things well, I'm just wondering 16:35.275 --> 16:36.865 like what they might think about that. 16:39.055 --> 16:39.115 Hmm. 16:40.464 --> 16:42.055 Chip Huth: Jeremy four years is a long time. 16:42.834 --> 16:43.135 Yep. 16:44.005 --> 16:47.785 And I'm not disregarding the cadence of your work or all 16:47.785 --> 16:48.865 the responsibilities you have. 16:49.495 --> 16:51.505 I'm just curious about the prioritization. 16:51.760 --> 16:57.400 I'm curious about what's holding you back from reconsidering those priorities? 16:57.670 --> 17:01.840 I mean, are we gonna wait another four years to get really curious 17:02.439 --> 17:05.890 about these people we find frustrating and disregarding and 17:07.210 --> 17:11.530 Jeremy: No, when you say super curious, I have not been super curious. 17:11.530 --> 17:11.589 No. 17:11.950 --> 17:12.339 Why? 17:14.964 --> 17:17.170 I, I don't know that I have a good reason for that. 17:22.780 --> 17:24.579 Victoria Trammel: I love this moment from Jeremy. 17:24.579 --> 17:29.020 I think this is so honest and, and if I was in his shoes, I don't 17:29.020 --> 17:31.090 know that I would've been willing to say I don't have a good reason. 17:31.120 --> 17:34.390 I think I probably would've come up with about 85,000 reasons why I 17:34.390 --> 17:39.400 haven't chip and justified to you all the things that I needed to be 17:39.400 --> 17:41.140 doing rather than getting curious. 17:41.140 --> 17:44.950 I think this is, this is big. 17:45.510 --> 17:47.700 For relatively early on in your conversation. 17:48.930 --> 17:49.260 Chip Huth: Yeah. 17:49.260 --> 17:54.240 Look, Jeremy kind of becomes my hero here in this moment because 17:54.870 --> 17:57.870 I don't think I would've had the courage to say what he said. 17:58.290 --> 17:58.530 Victoria Trammel: Same. 17:58.530 --> 17:58.800 I think 17:58.875 --> 18:01.080 Chip Huth: it, it, it would've been true, like it would've been 18:01.080 --> 18:02.760 as true for me as it is for Jeremy. 18:02.910 --> 18:05.370 I've been in these situations where it's, it's been true, 18:05.910 --> 18:07.350 but the fact that he can just. 18:07.580 --> 18:10.939 Be honest about it because he's smart enough, he's agile enough, he could have 18:10.939 --> 18:13.429 came up with an excuse, uh, but he didn't. 18:13.429 --> 18:16.189 He just let that all go and he got to the point where he could, he 18:16.189 --> 18:21.530 could actually question himself and be honest about right. 18:21.530 --> 18:22.280 What's happening. 18:22.399 --> 18:25.010 And that is, that's the predicate for improving. 18:25.100 --> 18:30.320 Matter of fact, that's the point of our work, is to get people to the point 18:30.320 --> 18:31.820 where they can make that admission. 18:32.310 --> 18:35.370 Right, and that allows him to dive a little bit deeper. 18:35.730 --> 18:38.340 Victoria Trammel: I mean, just with that one phrase, I feel like he has pierced 18:38.340 --> 18:40.740 the veil of his inward mindset, right? 18:40.740 --> 18:46.649 The fact that he's willing to consider that he doesn't have a good reason. 18:46.679 --> 18:47.010 Right. 18:47.250 --> 18:47.940 What does that mean? 18:47.940 --> 18:49.290 He has no justification. 18:50.010 --> 18:53.340 He has no justification for not doing the thing. 18:53.340 --> 18:55.500 He knows he needs to do that. 18:55.500 --> 18:56.550 That is like. 18:57.945 --> 19:00.345 I mean that that is, that is the pivotal point. 19:00.645 --> 19:03.105 That's where we would hope every leader could get to where they go, 19:03.585 --> 19:05.625 man, I don't really have a good reason. 19:06.405 --> 19:09.135 Chip Huth: If I'm not willing to question, Hey, where am I wrong? 19:09.135 --> 19:10.575 Where am I not seeing this correctly? 19:10.575 --> 19:12.015 Where have I mistepped? 19:12.015 --> 19:17.625 Where have I not acted in the way that I feel I should act in this situation? 19:17.775 --> 19:20.415 Where have I not taken my responsibility if I can't ask that question? 19:20.655 --> 19:21.675 I'm not after the truth. 19:21.675 --> 19:24.495 I'm after justification for staying where I'm at, and I think 19:24.495 --> 19:25.635 that's what makes me my hero here. 19:27.449 --> 19:27.615 I wanna 19:27.615 --> 19:28.875 Chip Huth: explore this a little bit. 19:28.995 --> 19:34.635 Um, when you feel like people aren't having due regard for your vast 19:34.635 --> 19:38.985 experience, your expertise, when you feel like they're excluding you from 19:38.985 --> 19:42.345 conversations or editing information and that they're not wanting to collaborate 19:42.345 --> 19:46.574 with you when you're feeling that way, how would you describe those folks? 19:47.385 --> 19:51.675 Like, if it was just you and I talking over a root beer, what would you say? 19:52.590 --> 19:53.790 Jeremy: What would I say about them? 19:54.030 --> 19:55.200 Chip Huth: Yeah, like how do you view them? 19:55.200 --> 19:55.590 I mean, 19:55.620 --> 19:55.980 Jeremy: uh, 19:56.490 --> 19:59.340 Chip Huth: you know, people that aren't including you in collaboration, people 19:59.340 --> 20:01.740 that aren't honoring your expertise. 20:01.890 --> 20:05.220 People that, that, again, don't, uh, seem to want to share the 20:05.220 --> 20:06.720 unvarnished truth with you. 20:08.850 --> 20:12.540 Jeremy: Uh, I get very frustrated with them. 20:13.140 --> 20:18.750 I kind of see them as an outsider for me, you know, in an odd way I respect them. 20:19.409 --> 20:22.169 But then I don't get that respect back and that's what frustrates me. 20:22.710 --> 20:25.440 Um, so I don't look down at them. 20:25.440 --> 20:27.000 I don't think of them differently. 20:27.270 --> 20:32.520 I just get frustrated because I don't see why that level of 20:32.520 --> 20:34.320 respect is not reciprocated back. 20:36.000 --> 20:38.669 Chip Huth: So what I'm hearing you say is that you experienced them as 20:38.669 --> 20:41.310 knowledgeable, uh, in the technical sense. 20:42.120 --> 20:45.840 You also experience them as frustrating as outsiders and as 20:45.840 --> 20:46.950 people who are disrespectful. 20:48.870 --> 20:49.260 Yes. 20:50.040 --> 20:51.060 How do you respond to that? 20:52.200 --> 20:53.399 How does that show up in your behaviors? 20:54.840 --> 20:59.700 Jeremy: Uh, I, I would say that, uh, I end up getting short and curt 20:59.700 --> 21:06.450 with them and, uh, maybe I try to be right instead of get it right. 21:08.730 --> 21:14.370 I try to exude more of a authoritarian leadership instead of collaborative. 21:17.310 --> 21:18.960 Chip Huth: You mentioned that you prefer collaborative. 21:20.010 --> 21:20.490 Jeremy: Yes, 21:24.210 --> 21:33.030 and then I just conflicted myself, um, that that is what I prefer, but when 21:33.210 --> 21:38.250 I don't get respected or my experience doesn't get respected or gets discounted. 21:39.285 --> 21:40.245 The red flag. 21:40.245 --> 21:45.135 As I become short, I become Kurt, and then, hey, this is what we're gonna do 21:45.315 --> 21:47.745 instead of my desire to be collaborative. 21:49.215 --> 21:51.405 Chip Huth: You're recognizing that as a red flag That's curious 21:52.275 --> 21:53.745 Jeremy: now that we're talking through it. 21:54.045 --> 21:54.705 Absolutely. 21:54.710 --> 21:57.975 I, I haven't thought about it in this perspective, but 21:58.365 --> 21:59.865 that is absolutely a red flag. 22:01.095 --> 22:05.445 Instead of being collaborative, I become more, uh, dictatorial. 22:05.925 --> 22:07.514 Yeah, there's just the lack of trust. 22:07.875 --> 22:12.915 Like, you know what I say from their perspective, I'm imagining what 22:12.915 --> 22:17.084 I say is not gonna matter because Jeremy's gonna make up his own mind. 22:18.284 --> 22:22.034 He's gonna do what he wants to do and not take our thoughts or 22:22.034 --> 22:24.584 ideas or suggestions into account. 22:25.245 --> 22:26.294 He's already made his mind up 22:31.490 --> 22:33.135 Chip Huth: between the session and the next session. 22:33.570 --> 22:36.420 Is, I want you to think deeply about what's held you back 22:36.660 --> 22:38.340 from being more curious. 22:38.340 --> 22:41.040 What's held you back from going out on the front line? 22:41.850 --> 22:45.525 I. And simply asking questions or pulling people in that are doing 22:45.525 --> 22:47.865 the technical aspects of the work and getting curious about their 22:47.865 --> 22:49.395 challenges, their impediments or goals. 22:55.305 --> 22:57.615 Victoria Trammel: A few weeks later, Jeremy and Chip got back together for 22:57.615 --> 23:01.965 their next session, and the space between coaching sessions is just as valuable 23:01.965 --> 23:05.625 as the sessions themselves because that's where the real work happens. 23:06.045 --> 23:10.395 It's where mindset is put to the test and new ways of thinking start to take hold. 23:12.660 --> 23:14.400 Chip Huth: What does it mean for you if you don't know it all? 23:16.350 --> 23:22.200 Jeremy: Uh, if I don't know it, all that means I need to ask questions, 23:22.770 --> 23:26.700 then I need to dig in and I need to understand, and it, and it's 23:26.700 --> 23:28.560 okay for me to not know it all. 23:29.160 --> 23:32.670 There's a bunch of this company that I don't know, it, it's a, it's a small 23:32.670 --> 23:37.920 miracle, the things that happen every day, but I guess in those situations. 23:38.399 --> 23:44.100 I rely on those leaders to execute that piece of the mission that I don't know. 23:45.270 --> 23:47.490 Chip Huth: But is it really okay for you not to know it all? 23:47.520 --> 23:51.629 What I mean by that is, are you okay with being ignorant? 23:53.460 --> 23:55.320 Can you set comfortably in ignorance? 23:55.470 --> 23:58.050 What feeling arises in you when you feel like you're ignorant? 23:59.399 --> 24:04.110 Jeremy: Uh, I don't like that feeling, you know, at the root of it. 24:04.110 --> 24:05.399 I'm not okay with that. 24:06.120 --> 24:06.600 Um. 24:07.345 --> 24:13.710 I, I just, I don't like not knowing at, at, at the very core of that question, 24:16.080 --> 24:18.570 Chip Huth: be interested in trying to explore where that comes from, 24:18.630 --> 24:22.050 because here's the thing, you're a very intelligent person, so 24:22.050 --> 24:26.970 cognitively you understand that you can't possibly know everything, not 24:26.970 --> 24:28.290 within any domain, even a domain. 24:28.290 --> 24:31.830 You've dedicated your life to like leadership cognitively, 24:32.790 --> 24:36.270 but at the visceral level, it's causing some type of disease. 24:36.270 --> 24:38.865 I. I'm just curious where that comes from. 24:41.955 --> 24:42.075 Jeremy: That's 24:42.075 --> 24:42.825 Chip Huth: a great question. 24:44.595 --> 24:48.165 I may be way off here, but is there any sense in which to the degree 24:48.165 --> 24:51.765 you feel like you can't do this job, it's impacting your ability to learn? 24:53.925 --> 24:55.215 I'm talking about your self-doubt. 24:55.245 --> 24:57.345 I'm talking about the self-doubt that you're not talking about. 24:57.345 --> 25:01.665 I'm talking about the deep down inside questioning. 25:02.325 --> 25:04.935 Despite all of the experience of the contrary or whether or 25:04.935 --> 25:06.195 not you can actually do this. 25:08.445 --> 25:08.834 Jeremy: Yes. 25:08.834 --> 25:10.155 Those thoughts have crossed my mind 25:11.625 --> 25:12.105 Chip Huth: for sure. 25:13.635 --> 25:17.205 I'm just curious, where does that come from? 25:17.834 --> 25:20.324 What experiences have you had that have suggested to you? 25:20.324 --> 25:21.074 You're not good enough. 25:24.960 --> 25:25.040 Hmm. 25:27.315 --> 25:30.555 Jeremy: It probably goes way deep, but probably childhood. 25:31.095 --> 25:33.585 I mean, it, it would go back that far. 25:34.680 --> 25:40.545 I, I would say, yeah, I'm gonna say that goes the childhood. 25:40.730 --> 25:44.750 Piece is just, um, never good enough for my father. 25:45.920 --> 25:46.220 Right? 25:47.060 --> 25:48.470 Just not good enough. 25:48.470 --> 25:52.730 Uh, not fast enough, not strong enough, not smart enough. 25:53.210 --> 25:59.360 Just not, not, not, and I think that that's probably, uh, well, 25:59.360 --> 26:02.780 no, not even probably when, because I've thought about this in the past 26:02.780 --> 26:04.490 and, and where does that come from? 26:04.490 --> 26:08.240 And, and it all leads back to that not good enough. 26:08.490 --> 26:12.815 As a child in my father's eyes, that's where I would point it back to. 26:21.585 --> 26:25.035 Victoria Trammel: When Jeremy's talking here, it's my heart hurts. 26:25.065 --> 26:30.525 'cause I think I've had very similar experiences, not necessarily 26:30.525 --> 26:32.205 with my dad, but with others. 26:32.775 --> 26:38.055 And in a way, as I've reflected on this, it's one of those things that 26:39.075 --> 26:46.965 if I want to justify an inward style that I have, I will latch onto the 26:46.965 --> 26:50.504 sentiments of others to use those to bolster that justification. 26:51.450 --> 26:58.500 So if I'm in a situation where I feel that I am incapable, it's very easy 26:58.500 --> 27:03.450 for me to call up hurtful experiences from the, from, you know, my, my past, 27:03.450 --> 27:08.340 my childhood, previous relationships where I am, I was told I was incapable. 27:09.179 --> 27:15.540 And then give those such heavy weight and meaning that I allow it to shape the way 27:15.540 --> 27:20.219 that I view myself moving forward because these people who were so significant in 27:20.219 --> 27:23.580 my life and my formation had this opinion. 27:23.760 --> 27:27.885 Therefore, I. It must be true because that's how I'm feeling right now. 27:28.275 --> 27:29.835 It's a cyclical thing, right? 27:29.835 --> 27:32.775 I'm feeling this way, so I look for justification that reinforces 27:32.775 --> 27:35.955 it, and the further that I can go back the better, right? 27:35.955 --> 27:39.855 Because that means that there's a quote, history of me being this way, so that it 27:39.855 --> 27:46.935 then justifies me being this way, and it's frustrating, and it's disappointing, and 27:46.935 --> 27:49.365 it's encouraging all at the same time. 27:49.575 --> 27:53.595 To know that there are things that are horrible that happen to people. 27:54.030 --> 27:58.590 No doubt, like factually, there are terrible things that happen, but we 27:58.590 --> 28:04.740 have so much power over the way that we take those words and those experiences 28:04.740 --> 28:07.050 and how we let it shape our future. 28:08.880 --> 28:15.900 But it's so easy to get stuck, and I think that's the thing that interests me here 28:15.900 --> 28:21.300 when Jeremy's talking is, you know, what's it gonna look like for him to get unstuck? 28:22.889 --> 28:28.260 Chip Huth: When we're stuck, when we're looking back on our relationships 28:29.129 --> 28:34.560 and trying to make meaning of what we perceive as suffering, especially 28:34.560 --> 28:35.699 at the hands of others, right? 28:36.149 --> 28:41.699 Like, we're doing this for a reason, Jeremy, me, you, all of us. 28:41.699 --> 28:44.790 We have reasons why we tell ourselves these stories. 28:45.210 --> 28:48.750 We're protecting ourself from some perceived threat, but. 28:49.635 --> 28:54.495 You are right in saying that we have more control than we think we do. 28:54.495 --> 28:55.185 We do. 28:55.965 --> 29:02.715 Um, it feels scary because like I'm tempted to think, well, look, 29:02.895 --> 29:07.785 the things that happen to me define me, but it's really the meaning 29:07.785 --> 29:09.585 that I make of what happens to me. 29:10.919 --> 29:15.600 That's what defines me, and that's what allows me to take control of the situation 29:15.600 --> 29:18.360 and not import it into my current reality. 29:18.810 --> 29:23.550 You know, it could be true that people have mistreated me, um, and they're 29:23.550 --> 29:29.310 culpable for that, but I'm responsible for the meaning that I give to what they did. 29:30.659 --> 29:32.129 Sometimes people will mistreat you. 29:32.129 --> 29:33.209 I mean, that's what people do. 29:33.675 --> 29:35.565 To varying degrees, right? 29:35.565 --> 29:38.895 We're hard on one another, but for me, then to take that 29:38.895 --> 29:47.415 mistreatment and to accept that as a verdict against my worth, right? 29:47.415 --> 29:48.915 That's a corruption of reality. 29:48.915 --> 29:50.895 That's saying like, this person has power over me. 29:50.895 --> 29:53.985 I've given them power over me to determine who I am. 29:54.675 --> 29:56.535 And how much value I bring to the world. 29:57.465 --> 29:58.395 Why would we do that? 29:58.395 --> 30:02.445 Well, we would do the hat for one reason we would do that is to 30:02.445 --> 30:04.665 avoid responsibility for improving. 30:04.665 --> 30:08.535 If I really am broken and powerless, then I'm not, I don't, 30:08.535 --> 30:10.305 I'm not required to be better. 30:10.815 --> 30:12.375 I'm not required to get unstuck. 30:13.125 --> 30:13.395 Right. 30:13.395 --> 30:15.435 I'm just, I'm, I'm the perpetual victim. 30:16.485 --> 30:19.635 And this isn't discounting people who are actually victimized by things. 30:19.635 --> 30:21.855 They, people are really victimized by things. 30:22.455 --> 30:26.415 But I have the power to not let my past dictate my present or my future. 30:26.775 --> 30:31.755 I have the power not to continually re-victimize myself by reliving that 30:31.755 --> 30:35.985 narrative and by again, importing into my current relationships. 30:37.635 --> 30:40.935 Once Jeremy or you or I or anyone can see that. 30:41.370 --> 30:47.399 We can see our responsibility and, and, and understand it, and see 30:47.399 --> 30:49.050 the way we're disabling ourselves. 30:50.639 --> 30:55.530 We can take responsibility for changing, for changing the meaning we give 30:55.530 --> 30:59.340 those past experiences, and that's the key in my mind to unleashing, 30:59.850 --> 31:02.520 you know, the power of what we're calling the outward mindset, right? 31:02.669 --> 31:07.949 Being able to take on responsibility to not self excuse. 31:08.580 --> 31:14.190 To not use those past traumas, those past incidents, um, as a reason for my current 31:14.280 --> 31:19.260 avoiding of obligation or my current dehumanizing of other people or my current 31:19.260 --> 31:21.840 accusations that I make against folks. 31:38.100 --> 31:38.760 McKinlay Otterson: Hey everyone. 31:38.880 --> 31:41.220 McKinley here, one of the hosts of Leading Outward. 31:41.790 --> 31:44.670 Since this is one of our first episodes, I wanted to give 31:44.670 --> 31:45.810 you a quick lay of the land. 31:46.380 --> 31:48.990 You're currently listening to one of our coaching episodes. 31:49.470 --> 31:53.280 We also release narrative episodes that explore a single leadership challenge, 31:53.340 --> 31:57.990 and we've created these two formats so that you're getting both ideas and 31:57.990 --> 32:02.040 a chance to see what incorporating those ideas looks like in practice. 32:02.790 --> 32:04.080 We're so glad you're here. 32:04.350 --> 32:08.280 And if someone's come to mind while you've been listening, it's probably because 32:08.280 --> 32:11.580 what you're hearing could help them solve points of friction in their life. 32:12.330 --> 32:16.080 Invite them to learn alongside us by sharing this episode with them 32:25.740 --> 32:26.220 Chip Huth: in the Navy. 32:26.220 --> 32:27.480 You were really good at your job. 32:28.710 --> 32:30.629 I was highly competent. 32:31.635 --> 32:35.625 Yes, 24 years is a long time to be highly competent. 32:35.625 --> 32:40.665 It's something to be functioning at a high level and then to step away from that 32:40.665 --> 32:45.675 into a new role with a bunch of unknowns. 32:46.605 --> 32:48.405 I'm just trying to imagine what that would feel like. 32:48.765 --> 32:54.075 It's almost like you're leaving this to use an nautical term, this anchor, right. 32:54.075 --> 32:54.645 What's anchoring you? 32:55.725 --> 32:56.145 Yes. 32:56.205 --> 32:57.255 Uh, maybe. 32:57.255 --> 32:57.855 Maybe, I don't know. 32:57.855 --> 33:01.005 Maybe that could even be part of your identity at some point, right. 33:01.725 --> 33:03.465 The competent person who gets things done. 33:04.574 --> 33:06.044 Yes, absolutely. 33:07.455 --> 33:08.865 I'm gonna run something by you. 33:09.014 --> 33:15.855 Um, I am sensing kind of conflicting objectives, personal objectives, 33:15.855 --> 33:16.845 objectives that you have. 33:17.415 --> 33:19.544 And, and I've seen this in myself before, by the way. 33:19.725 --> 33:24.284 There's the stated objective that you have one, which is to 33:24.284 --> 33:26.685 increase your level of competence. 33:27.764 --> 33:30.764 In the past four years of being here, you've recognized, hey, there 33:30.764 --> 33:34.514 are different ways of doing things, different processes in place, and you 33:34.695 --> 33:39.105 self-disclose that you hadn't done as much as you felt you could do objectively 33:39.254 --> 33:40.875 to learn to grow in that four years. 33:41.264 --> 33:45.615 A bit of knowledge that you feel like you have a sense that you, you need 33:45.615 --> 33:47.324 to dedicate yourself to developing. 33:47.625 --> 33:49.395 So that's like the stated objective. 33:49.485 --> 33:51.284 I want to grow my competence. 33:51.345 --> 33:51.375 Okay. 33:52.830 --> 33:57.690 What I find ends up driving our decision making and driving our behavior 33:57.870 --> 34:01.740 is often the unstated objectives, the stuff that's under the surface 34:01.740 --> 34:03.390 that almost feels unconscious. 34:04.170 --> 34:07.980 So if someone says, look, I'd like to grow my knowledge, but I'm 34:07.980 --> 34:13.080 engaging in behavior that actually doesn't further my stated goal. 34:13.139 --> 34:17.520 So I say, Jeremy, I'd like to learn more about this operation, yet I'm 34:17.520 --> 34:21.900 doing things or not doing things that run counter to achieving that goal. 34:22.725 --> 34:24.015 So it sounds like madness, right? 34:24.555 --> 34:24.645 Mm-hmm. 34:24.885 --> 34:25.215 Like what? 34:25.245 --> 34:26.685 Okay, chip, you say, this is what you want. 34:26.685 --> 34:28.935 Why are you behaving in a way that's not gonna get you what you want? 34:29.715 --> 34:33.105 And, and what I've found is, at least in my life, is that often I 34:33.105 --> 34:37.335 have a secret mission, something that's not stated, that's actually 34:37.335 --> 34:38.595 driving my decision making. 34:38.595 --> 34:44.265 It's, and it's, it's informed by my mindset, meaning you told me that you 34:44.355 --> 34:49.695 were concerned, one of your concerns was looking incompetent, looking like 34:49.695 --> 34:51.585 you didn't know what you were doing. 34:54.105 --> 34:58.245 So think about how that might conflict with becoming more competent. 35:00.255 --> 35:05.835 If I say I want to be more competent and simultaneously I want to be 35:05.835 --> 35:09.915 seen as the smartest person in the room, how could that get in the 35:09.915 --> 35:11.055 way of me being more competent? 35:11.325 --> 35:11.955 What are your thoughts? 35:14.205 --> 35:17.835 Jeremy: My mind went right away where if I need to look competent. 35:19.230 --> 35:25.080 I might not ask a question, I might not expose and, and ask a silly 35:25.080 --> 35:27.420 question or dive into something deeper. 35:27.630 --> 35:32.370 Even though in my mind when somebody says something, I don't 35:32.370 --> 35:34.170 necessarily say, tell me more. 35:34.830 --> 35:39.870 And, and, and I've learned that I need to, I need to do that more instead of, you 35:39.870 --> 35:44.520 know, an hour later I should have asked that, or I should have dug into that more. 35:44.580 --> 35:46.860 You know, I, I might hold back. 35:47.265 --> 35:49.545 Because I don't wanna look incompetent. 35:50.835 --> 35:52.545 That, that's where my mind went right away. 35:53.535 --> 35:55.185 Chip Huth: To what degree have you found yourself doing that? 35:56.985 --> 36:01.545 Jeremy: It depends on the situation, but I mean, I do it, um, in, in 36:01.545 --> 36:06.795 certain meetings around certain people, um, probably to avoid conflict. 36:07.815 --> 36:08.445 Chip Huth: That's interesting. 36:08.505 --> 36:10.335 In what way does that avoid conflict? 36:10.335 --> 36:12.255 Staying willfully ignorant. 36:13.680 --> 36:18.180 Jeremy: It's my insecurity because I don't wanna look silly asking, Hey, why is that? 36:18.569 --> 36:19.740 What is that process? 36:20.310 --> 36:22.799 Chip Huth: I feel like you're working at cross purposes. 36:22.980 --> 36:25.919 Like, I want to be dependable, I want to help people, but at 36:25.919 --> 36:27.419 the same time I get so stuck. 36:28.230 --> 36:30.540 So it's like, whoa, like, okay. 36:33.180 --> 36:37.830 As I'm thinking about this, what does it occur to you to do differently? 36:39.330 --> 36:41.069 Jeremy: It's like a red flag, but. 36:41.654 --> 36:48.944 Uh, when I, uh, avoid something, that's where I need to focus my energy. 36:49.935 --> 36:50.835 Chip Huth: Talk about that more. 36:51.225 --> 36:52.095 What do you mean by red flag? 36:53.955 --> 37:01.335 Jeremy: If there's a situation or a person, um, that I avoid or a put off 37:01.845 --> 37:06.225 that's a red flag, it pops up if I catch it, because I don't catch 'em all. 37:06.555 --> 37:07.694 If that comes up. 37:08.325 --> 37:08.745 Okay. 37:08.895 --> 37:09.675 That's a trigger. 37:09.675 --> 37:13.875 That's a red flag that I need to dig into that I need to focus on that because 37:13.875 --> 37:16.995 if I'm avoiding, why am I avoiding? 37:17.655 --> 37:20.655 Chip Huth: Do you see yourself, uh, avoiding often? 37:20.895 --> 37:24.165 I mean, does that seem like the primary thing that pops up in these situations? 37:24.165 --> 37:24.735 Avoidance, 37:26.025 --> 37:28.965 Jeremy: it's, it, it's not primary, but it's prevalent. 37:29.325 --> 37:30.405 I don't know if that makes sense. 37:38.085 --> 37:43.905 I was doing some thinking about that the last couple of weeks and um, I think 37:43.905 --> 37:47.835 it's really image self preservation. 37:48.675 --> 37:50.775 And I say that because. 37:51.795 --> 37:54.555 Then I'm not putting myself at risk. 37:54.825 --> 38:01.095 I'm not potentially saying something wrong, and I think by avoiding that, 38:01.095 --> 38:05.655 I don't have to confront that, and it's preserving my image of myself. 38:06.735 --> 38:08.160 Chip Huth: What do you think the consequences of that are 38:08.160 --> 38:09.040 in your, in your position? 38:10.060 --> 38:11.000 Jeremy: Oh, uh. 38:11.845 --> 38:18.205 Huge because in my position, I can't be avoiding problems or people, right. 38:18.280 --> 38:21.175 I, I need to have those conversations. 38:21.175 --> 38:22.315 I need to tackle that. 38:22.465 --> 38:24.235 I need to be there, I need to be present. 38:24.295 --> 38:27.835 I don't need to be avoiding, uh, anything. 38:29.245 --> 38:32.905 I do have a mechanism that if I've learned that, if there's something I've. 38:33.584 --> 38:36.254 I'm avoiding, I need to put energy into that. 38:36.884 --> 38:40.064 Probably over the last couple years it's become more, I've 38:40.064 --> 38:41.265 been more self-aware of that. 38:41.654 --> 38:43.575 Avoidance equals action for me. 38:45.345 --> 38:47.084 Chip Huth: How's it been going as far as execution? 38:47.084 --> 38:50.564 I mean, have you, has that been almost an automatic response for you? 38:50.595 --> 38:55.154 You notice the avoidance and you process that, and then you develop a plan of. 38:55.190 --> 38:56.840 Action and you move toward it. 38:56.840 --> 38:59.030 Is that, has that been your process and how's that been working? 39:00.530 --> 39:02.510 Jeremy: I wouldn't say it's automatic. 39:02.510 --> 39:08.540 It's not just automatic, but when I do, um, you know, at least once a 39:08.540 --> 39:14.750 week, uh, self-reflection and, uh, I identify it when I'm thinking through 39:15.080 --> 39:17.870 business and relationships and processes. 39:18.280 --> 39:20.020 That I'm aware of that. 39:20.020 --> 39:22.600 And if I have that little tingling in my neck that I'm avoiding 39:22.600 --> 39:25.960 that or pushing that off, it's getting lower on the task list. 39:25.990 --> 39:27.100 That's where I need to put energy. 39:27.580 --> 39:28.960 So it's, it's not automatic. 39:28.960 --> 39:32.560 It, it takes intentional thought on my part to identify that. 39:34.690 --> 39:37.000 Victoria Trammel: After this session, Jeremy took action on the things 39:37.000 --> 39:40.390 he and Chip had talked about, and when they got back together, Jeremy 39:40.390 --> 39:45.010 shared this powerful experience that highlights what can happen when we turn 39:45.010 --> 39:46.840 outward toward the people around us. 39:48.195 --> 39:53.265 Jeremy: Since you and I talked, I used the outward mindset and I owned a mistake. 39:54.105 --> 39:56.625 We did not get foreman pay, right? 39:56.775 --> 40:02.655 And so in May we did some, we did, did our annual pay raises, and our 40:02.655 --> 40:08.205 foreman, um, pointed out some glaring discrepancies in our calculus. 40:08.655 --> 40:10.665 And I said, Hey, let me, let me take a look at it. 40:10.755 --> 40:13.245 And where I failed was, um. 40:13.980 --> 40:18.300 I didn't act quick enough and probably stuck my head in the, in the sand. 40:18.300 --> 40:23.610 And some time went by and general superintendent said, Hey, we've gotta 40:23.610 --> 40:25.620 solve this and it, and it's not easy. 40:25.620 --> 40:27.570 We can't just throw money up problems. 40:27.870 --> 40:31.020 There's a lot of thought that goes into this to get it right. 40:31.440 --> 40:33.630 I said, next Friday, I'm gonna solve this by next Friday. 40:34.230 --> 40:37.860 Well, that manifested in itself that. 40:38.279 --> 40:41.669 The foreman thought that I was gonna come talk to him on a 40:41.669 --> 40:44.100 Friday, and so I didn't do that. 40:44.339 --> 40:47.460 I had some meetings in between to try to get this right. 40:47.910 --> 40:53.250 Friday I was, uh, it was probably about 6 30, 7 o'clock at night. 40:53.730 --> 40:58.529 Superintendent called me and said, Hey, did you talk to the foreman today? 40:59.460 --> 41:00.180 And I said, no. 41:00.180 --> 41:02.939 And we got into it and immediately. 41:03.375 --> 41:09.285 I knew that I had negatively impacted the guys that really pay my salary. 41:09.405 --> 41:12.705 They are the bread and butter of the company, right? 41:12.735 --> 41:13.395 And they get it done. 41:13.395 --> 41:15.375 And I had negatively impacted them. 41:15.915 --> 41:19.695 Whether I came back and told 'em that they got a, a different merit raise or 41:19.695 --> 41:24.645 they didn't, they wanted and deserved an answer and I didn't give it to them. 41:25.095 --> 41:26.715 And I will tell you that. 41:27.420 --> 41:31.680 The rest of that night, at least Saturday through half a Sunday, I 41:31.680 --> 41:33.240 was beating myself up pretty bad. 41:33.360 --> 41:38.670 It'd been very easy for me as I reflect back on this to say I did not say that 41:38.670 --> 41:41.370 I was gonna tell the foreman on Friday that I was gonna go meet with them. 41:42.060 --> 41:43.470 But it happened. 41:43.560 --> 41:45.060 That's how it was communicated. 41:45.510 --> 41:47.850 And I didn't do something, I haven't gotten back to 41:47.850 --> 41:48.870 the foreman after some time. 41:49.290 --> 41:52.560 And so the first thing I did Monday morning is I went and talked to the 41:52.560 --> 41:54.120 foreman and said, Hey, I'm sorry. 41:54.570 --> 41:57.090 Here's the date that you will have an answer by. 41:57.150 --> 42:01.470 And I, and I got it fixed and, and, uh, they were appreciative that I came out 42:01.470 --> 42:02.940 and told them that I don't have an answer. 42:03.000 --> 42:04.230 The answer isn't no. 42:04.290 --> 42:05.220 I'm still working on it. 42:05.280 --> 42:07.950 I'm sorry I've impacted you negatively. 42:08.340 --> 42:09.420 Um, I will do better. 42:09.840 --> 42:13.560 At the time, I felt that's the only thing that I could do, and I fixed 42:13.560 --> 42:16.765 the problem and, and, uh, I think they were happy with the outcome. 42:19.964 --> 42:25.395 Even on the weekend I was traveling, um, the three people, the, the superintendents 42:26.024 --> 42:30.194 I came in gave 'em a handwritten note and said, Hey, I screwed up. 42:30.524 --> 42:31.214 I'm sorry. 42:31.214 --> 42:32.295 You deserve better. 42:32.475 --> 42:33.375 I will be better. 42:33.495 --> 42:34.424 We will get this right. 42:35.205 --> 42:36.225 That's basically all I told him. 42:36.884 --> 42:38.234 Chip Huth: How do you feel on the other side of that? 42:38.835 --> 42:40.365 Jeremy: I should have done that way earlier. 42:41.175 --> 42:47.565 I feel I let people down and you know, that took away some trust capital that 42:47.565 --> 42:49.965 I had built up in the organization. 42:50.385 --> 42:55.035 That specific incident, I didn't do what I said I was gonna do. 42:55.755 --> 42:58.755 That really impacted major players in the company. 42:58.995 --> 43:00.165 And so on a personal level. 43:00.505 --> 43:01.795 I don't feel good about that. 43:02.335 --> 43:07.675 Um, but I learned a huge lesson that I gotta understand how I impact people, 43:08.065 --> 43:12.985 and I just wasn't equating that time period between when the foreman brought 43:12.985 --> 43:19.645 the information to me, and this really went south quickly during that time. 43:20.155 --> 43:22.375 I didn't fully appreciate how it was impacting them. 43:22.855 --> 43:23.935 They just wanted an answer. 43:24.325 --> 43:28.135 Whether it was, no, I'm still working on it, or here's a raise. 43:28.585 --> 43:29.965 They just wanted an answer back. 43:34.435 --> 43:37.675 Chip Huth: You took a situation and you, you mentioned this kind of, it, 43:37.680 --> 43:41.935 it, it took away some from some of the trust capital you built up, but in, in 43:41.935 --> 43:45.745 my estimation, the way that you shifted there, you actually took a situation. 43:46.665 --> 43:50.174 That could have been very negative and you turned it into 43:50.174 --> 43:51.464 an opportunity to build trust. 43:52.669 --> 43:53.895 I, I hope you recognize that. 43:54.044 --> 43:54.404 Jeremy: Yes. 43:54.555 --> 43:54.765 Yeah. 43:55.140 --> 43:55.430 Yeah. 43:55.875 --> 43:58.484 Chip Huth: Because you, you came into it, this, there's adversity, there's 43:58.484 --> 44:02.265 conflict, there's concern, there's people that feel marginalized, maybe perhaps, 44:02.265 --> 44:04.335 or an appreciated, and then you come in. 44:04.680 --> 44:06.270 And simply no excuses made. 44:06.690 --> 44:08.100 I dropped the ball on this. 44:08.370 --> 44:11.310 And further than that, you said, this is what I'm gonna do to make it right. 44:12.750 --> 44:16.350 So I, I'm gonna guess, Jeremy, that they walked away probably trusting you more, 44:16.350 --> 44:17.700 which sounds totally counterintuitive. 44:18.575 --> 44:20.280 Yeah, yeah. 44:20.285 --> 44:21.000 I, I think they 44:21.000 --> 44:21.001 Jeremy: did. 44:27.330 --> 44:29.190 Victoria Trammel: This is huge for Jeremy. 44:29.805 --> 44:34.665 I mean, I, I think it's so tremendous the fact that one, this naturally occurred 44:34.665 --> 44:38.655 to him when he was able to figure out what he was supposed to do, and two, that 44:38.655 --> 44:41.145 once he got to that point, he did it. 44:41.475 --> 44:45.615 When we can move from an inward to an outward mindset, it's just we can 44:45.615 --> 44:47.115 acknowledge something that went wrong. 44:47.115 --> 44:50.115 We take ownership and accountability for it, reconcile 44:50.115 --> 44:51.915 their relationship and move on. 44:52.785 --> 44:54.795 Chip Huth: Letter writing never occurred to him. 44:55.245 --> 44:58.875 When he stepped outta line with his values, but once he realigns 44:58.875 --> 44:59.955 with what matters, right? 44:59.955 --> 45:02.535 The things he really believes are important. 45:02.835 --> 45:04.695 Once he does that, all of a sudden it occurs to him. 45:05.775 --> 45:08.955 I think the right thing to do is write a letter that wasn't even on his radar 45:08.955 --> 45:11.505 before, but he's not making a sacrifice. 45:11.505 --> 45:12.795 He's not martyring himself. 45:12.795 --> 45:18.345 I. He's just simply doing what Outwardness dictates in the situation. 45:18.405 --> 45:21.975 He's recovered his sense of these people as people, and he's acting 45:21.975 --> 45:23.835 truthfully and honestly and forthrightly. 45:24.225 --> 45:28.365 That is the most powerful thing we can ever do when our goal is to 45:28.365 --> 45:30.285 connect with and lead other people. 45:31.845 --> 45:34.305 Victoria Trammel: It's been a while since we've talked to Jeremy and we were 45:34.305 --> 45:35.955 curious how it's been going for him. 45:36.315 --> 45:39.615 So we reached out to see what his leadership journey has continued 45:39.615 --> 45:41.625 to look like for him and his team. 45:43.065 --> 45:48.885 Jeremy: Not too long ago, we had a crew that they had some pretty major 45:48.885 --> 45:53.625 infractions, things that would warrant getting terminated, and my initial 45:53.625 --> 45:56.295 reaction, I went right to blame. 45:56.295 --> 45:57.705 I wanted to go and terminate 'em. 45:57.705 --> 45:58.425 All right. 46:03.750 --> 46:04.980 I said, well, I need to step back. 46:04.980 --> 46:08.940 So if my mind is going right to blame, change your mindset. 46:09.000 --> 46:10.110 Let's get curious. 46:10.200 --> 46:15.660 And so, you know, I went out to that crew with a open mind, um, with 46:15.660 --> 46:19.200 empathy, and I had a conversation with him and I just really understood, 46:19.200 --> 46:21.960 hey, what was going through your mind when you all were doing this? 46:22.360 --> 46:27.730 Do you realize these are implications of your actions, you know, up to losing 46:27.730 --> 46:32.560 your life or termination, and actually walked away with a much better connection. 46:32.560 --> 46:39.490 And, um, today, months later, crew, they are more high performing now, and 46:39.490 --> 46:41.530 they, they changed, uh, their attitude. 46:41.770 --> 46:43.355 They change how they operate and that's a. 46:43.535 --> 46:46.385 Attributed to getting curious, knowing that I was going to 46:46.385 --> 46:50.315 blame, and then instead going with empathy and leading with curiosity. 46:50.315 --> 46:51.935 And I just thought that was a huge win. 46:57.095 --> 46:58.985 Chip Huth: Yeah, brother, it's been, this has been incredible. 46:58.990 --> 47:02.225 I, I really appreciate you letting me in and, and, and letting me grow with you. 47:03.370 --> 47:06.700 Jeremy: There's no words that can express my gratitude of you willing 47:06.700 --> 47:10.510 to, uh, dig into some of these and challenge me to get better, think 47:10.510 --> 47:14.740 deeper how manifesting some of these bad behaviors that are impacting the others. 47:14.740 --> 47:18.700 So, uh, I really, really appreciate you spending the time with me and, 47:19.000 --> 47:20.800 and, uh, helping me grow as a leader. 47:21.310 --> 47:21.550 Chip Huth: Hmm. 47:21.670 --> 47:22.660 So cool, Jeremy. 47:22.660 --> 47:23.200 So cool. 47:23.500 --> 47:24.190 Alright my brother. 47:24.460 --> 47:25.930 We will see each other down the road. 47:25.930 --> 47:26.680 I am quite certain. 47:27.040 --> 47:27.790 Jeremy: Absolutely. 47:28.180 --> 47:29.140 Thanks for your time, chip. 47:29.230 --> 47:29.890 You take care. 47:31.360 --> 47:31.630 Chip Huth: Thank you. 47:31.630 --> 47:32.050 My friend 47:41.230 --> 47:43.960 McKinlay Otterson: Leading Outward is produced by the Arbinger Institute 47:44.590 --> 47:48.010 to have a conversation about how we can equip you to transform 47:48.010 --> 47:49.540 your leaders and organization. 47:49.900 --> 47:55.090 Schedule a complimentary strategy session@arbinger.com, and for those of 47:55.090 --> 47:59.110 you who have the courage to have your own coaching sessions recorded and shared. 47:59.185 --> 48:02.935 Like the episode you just listened to so that others can be helped 48:02.935 --> 48:04.195 on their leadership journey. 48:04.645 --> 48:07.645 Email us at Leading outward@arbinger.com.