Jeremy: I've only been in this company four years now, and a lot of
the folks in our company started at the bottom and worked their way up.
Victoria Trammel: This is Jeremy, the Vice President of Construction at an
engineering and construction company.
He's working with Chip youth, an Arbinger coach to navigate his
current leadership challenges.
Before joining his current organization, Jeremy logged 24 years in the US Navy
developing many of the skills he needed to be successful in his new role.
However, even four years into his position, he still feels like an outsider.
Like his experience isn't being recognized.
Jeremy: And so I'm kind of the first one that's come in at a senior
leadership role, and that may be to my detriment, uh, in their mind as well.
Uh, discounting all of the stuff that I've done in my past.
Victoria Trammel: Through the course of their time together, Jeremy and
Chip explore the mindset that causes, in Jeremy's case avoidance, a lack
of curiosity and self-doubt that can keep even seasoned leaders stuck.
The idea behind these coaching episodes of leading outward is
that you can see some of yourself in Jeremy, that his struggles are.
All of our struggles, and that through direct and honest, introspection,
dialogue and action, we're capable of the change needed to transform
our workplaces and ourselves.
Welcome to Leading Outward, the Arbinger Institute's podcast, where we explore
the tools and ideas we've used for over 45 years to help people solve their
toughest leadership and organizational challenges by leading with an outward
mindset, seeing people as people.
I'm Victoria Trammell, an Arbinger facilitator, and I'll be here as a
guide throughout this coaching episode.
While the actual coaching takes place between Jeremy and Chip sometimes.
Times I'll pop in and chat directly with Chip to help us unpack everything.
Chip Huth: How do you feel about being the only person to come into
the organization from the outside and step into a senior leadership role?
Jeremy: I was told on day one it's gonna be a huge challenge and uh,
four years later I'm maybe 50% there.
It has been a challenge.
What's frustrating is, you know, I've got 24 years of military experience
that ties directly to our operations, but it just gets discounted.
It's not, it's not looked upon as value, um, to a lot of people in
the organization because I didn't grow up in this organization.
So it's very challenging for me, and I've spent a lot of time
building relationships, building trust, being there for the team.
And, uh, I, I think after four years I see the fruits of my
labor, but it's been a challenge.
Chip Huth: How do you feel when people discount your experience?
I mean, 24 years.
That's very impressive.
Jeremy: It extremely frustrating and I try to be humble about it and
look at it from their perspective.
They don't know what I did in the military.
Um, I can talk about it, but they don't know.
They don't understand.
So I just continue to.
Be there for the team, um, being a leader as I always have been, but
it personally, it's very challenging when my past is discounted.
Victoria Trammel: Man, I resonate so much with what Jeremy's talking about here.
So even coming to Arbinger, right, none of my previous experience I
felt like was at all applicable.
And so I took this posture of like, I, not only my new kid on the block, I don't have
any experience or expertise in this area.
And so everything that I've done in my career up until this point,
not that it's worthless, but it, it certainly did not carry.
A whole lot of value stepping into this role.
And so because of that, everything was from this worse than perspective.
So if somebody had an idea that was different than mine, it was
like, well, they must know better.
Right?
So I, I can't be a part of this 'cause they, they certainly have a
better idea more so than I would.
Whereas in previous roles, when I was in the same kind of industry, it was very
similar where it was like, how dare you discount what I'm bringing to the table?
And.
What makes you think that?
I don't already know that.
And I would show up that way so often, like before I even would start meetings,
like I would already have this brewing sense of like, just wait, just wait.
They're gonna try to explain to me something that I already know and they're
gonna pretend like I don't know it.
And I, I think back on those experiences and I'm like, man, I
can only imagine what it was like to be with me in those meetings.
Chip Huth: When you're coming into a new context, you're carrying
all that experience with you.
And I know it has been for me in the past, Vic, it's really hard to go from
being the expert to kind of being the go-to person, the person who has the
solution and answers to being the new guy.
I do think this is fairly common.
Uh, it's exacerbated when we're inward.
When we take an outward perspective and we can think about the mission and what
I'm obligated to provide to my employer and my team, I can set that aside.
I can even acknowledge it openly and talk openly about it in such
a way that it actually takes the power away from that insecurity to
undermine and invite self focus.
So if I'm hearing you correctly, what triggers your frustration
is the fact that you feel.
They don't have what you consider to be due regard for your prior
experience, which is extensive.
Tell me about a time when you didn't know the things you needed to know
and when you felt judged for it.
When you felt minimized for it.
Diminished in some way.
Jeremy: Oh, that happened today.
Can I use that recently example?
Chip Huth: Please do.
Jeremy: I asked the question why we had divided one crew amongst two
crews, and uh, it's a very operational kind of in the weeds question.
And the superintendent looked at me and said, where in the hell what
rock have you been hiding under?
We had four people on this crew fail at drug tests, so we had to take 'em off the
crew, and we didn't have enough people to do the job, so we had to take one crew and
fill in the other crews and divide it up.
And I said, well, that makes sense.
But I, I guess I just wasn't privy to that.
I didn't know.
And so I was ignorant to the situation and, um, it was pointed
out to me and, uh, like you're right.
I'm sorry, I didn't know that.
I, I don't know if I've been asleep at the wheel or maybe I didn't need
to know that, but I said thank you for taking care of it, meeting the mission.
I just didn't know what I was pointed out very clearly.
Like, what rock have you been hiding under?
Chip Huth: Yeah, that's pretty, pretty interesting.
Way to deliver feedback.
How'd that make you feel?
Jeremy: Inadequate as a leader, like, I oversee construction
and I didn't know that.
Um, I, I didn't feel, uh, I didn't feel good when somebody
called me out blatantly.
What rock have you been hiding under?
Chip Huth: What else do they do that that might drive your frustration?
Jeremy: Um, if, if it's an issue or a challenge that we're facing
and I just get, you need to fix it.
Help me understand what I need to fix, what's the problem?
What's the history, what's the context of it?
An example of that was recently we had some material stolen from a
job site, and all I was told was, you need to file a police report.
There was a whole bunch of other context around this situation, but
all I got was you need to file a police report, and then as we dig into
it, there's a lot more information.
There could be some nefarious things going on.
There could be more people involved.
But I wasn't given that information.
I was just given some material, was stolen, file a police report, and it's
taken me a few, few weeks to dig into that, to find out more information.
I don't know that I have the rock bottom truth, but there's a lot more to that.
And uh, I know that the information was known at the time, but I was
just told to file a police report.
Hmm.
Chip Huth: I could see how that might help someone feel excluded.
Yes.
So I'm curious, um.
When you're getting this information kind of on a drip, maybe it feels like
it's been edited or attenuated in some way, what do you think is driving that?
What's driving their, what appears to be their tendency to not give you
the full story if you had to guess?
Jeremy: If I had to guess, and how I perceive it is, you know, in our
industry, the guy that runs the screw on the back of the paver, right, they,
they started running the screw and they know how to lay a mat of asphalt
and they've grown up in the industry.
Well, I've never ran the screw.
And our company, uh, is a very hub and spoke communication and
direction type organization.
So there's a lot of phone calls that are made to individuals back and forth and
uh, I always joke around that I'm not in the information Super highway because
I'm not on my phone getting phone calls all the time on getting the information.
And over the last four years.
I've slowly merged into the information superhighway, but it, but it's been
a challenge and I think that is the, the reason why I just get the drip.
I'm not in people's mind.
The first one, they got a call or call to catch up or just call to chitchat.
You know the people that have been here 10, 15, 20, 30 years, that's what
they know and that's what they do.
And so I've tried very diligently to ease my way in there and
just make phone calls and the conversation and the building trust.
It's not my style, but I've tried, uh, very hard to, uh, do that more and more
Victoria Trammel: chip, as I'm listening to Jeremy talk about
this, and he's talking about how he doesn't know how to do these things.
I think back there was a, a position that I held where I was deputy
program manager on this massive software development contract.
And I was not feeling, I was, I was about to, oh, see.
Tricky.
I was about to say I wasn't part of the inner circle.
I. I was not feeling a part of the inner circle.
And so what I said to myself was, well, that's because I've
never been a software developer.
I don't have a technical degree.
I don't have an advanced degree in a technical field.
And so until any of those things have happened, no one
is gonna take me seriously.
And so what I did then in response was remove myself from those conversations.
Maybe not.
Physically, but certainly mentally and emotionally because they're
not gonna take me seriously anyway.
I'm not a part of this inner circle because I haven't done all of
these things in a technical field.
Therefore, I'm not gonna understand what they're talking about because
they're not gonna explain it to me.
They don't think that I'm worthy of their time.
Chip Huth: That's super powerful, Vic.
Up to this point, the problem has been people aren't including him.
People are dismissive of him.
Like he's seen that as the problem.
But now he's recognizing, you know, the problem is, and you know,
this metaphor of the information superhighway, that's pretty telling.
There's some passivity implied there in the way that he's considering being
part of this information network.
Right?
He says, you know, he's been trying to get on the highway.
So it's you.
You see the, you see the passive nature of that is like, well, look,
until people start inviting me into this network, I'm not gonna
have the information that I need.
The reason they're not reaching out to me and giving me the information
is 'cause I haven't ran the screw.
I'm not part of the team.
And what that allows 'em to do is to evade his responsibility for being
intentional about becoming part of the team by reaching out and getting curious.
He doesn't have to be curious.
He sets back and waits for people to come to him.
He can use the excuse quite effectively of them not coming to him as all
the reason he needs for not learning the things that he needs to know.
And all that is to say that when I'm carrying around this storyline
and the storyline goes something like I'm the kind of person who
already is an expert in this field.
Then that disin invites me to ask questions that might be considered naive
if asked by an expert in that field.
So instead, I just sit back and I wait for people to, to invite me
in, and they don't invite me in, which tells me they're the problem.
And then I come up with reasons why they're not inviting me in.
And of course the obvious reason is that, uh, you know, they just don't value me.
Victoria Trammel: And I think that's the power, the destructive
power of an inward mindset, right?
Because I'm thinking about it.
Not only is he creating reasons why people are not including them, I would
argue that he's also over-inflating the requirements in order to be
invited into this organization.
It's not that I just have to understand.
I haven't done this one job.
I haven't driven the screw, therefore.
I can't be a part of this, which is what I think is so tricky about Inwardness.
Chip Huth: You said, um, you've never ran the screw.
Did I get that right?
Yep.
Never ran the screw.
You've been there how many years?
Four.
Four years.
What's held you back from learning more about the technical side of the operation?
I.
Jeremy: Really no excuse time.
Uh, I go once a week.
I do dedicate a day to go out and spend with the crews and ask questions
and learn and make sure I understand, uh, what the cruise challenges
are and how I could help them.
Um, but
Chip Huth: really time.
What other things take up your time, other priorities.
Things that are more important than having a better sense of the technical skills
of the people that you lead, what are the priorities get in the way of that?
Jeremy: Uh, any one of the other divisions that I oversee, finances,
operations, making sure that we're out bidding work and winning work
so that we can create a backlog.
Logistics safety for the company.
Continuous improvement, uh, media relationships.
You know, it's quite the gamut of things that, uh, consume time.
I'm the new guy.
I got about, in my estimation about eight more years and then,
then I won't be the new guy
Chip Huth: eight years.
So you're gonna wait eight years?
No.
Learn more about, what do you say?
Jeremy: It, it's our, uh, it's our culture that, you know, until you
hit the 10 or 12 year mark, you're the new guy in our organization.
Chip Huth: That's convenient.
Yeah.
I mean, the new guy's not really expected to know a lot.
Jeremy: Yeah.
Well, and that's part of it.
How can the new guy come in and be in a senior role?
Right.
Just, it hasn't happened in our company prior to me, and so it's,
uh, it's new for a lot of people.
Chip Huth: People are aware of your accomplishments in the military.
They're aware of your record.
Now they, you may feel like they give that short shrift, but they know,
they know why you were brought in.
I just wonder to what degree they might feel.
That you really haven't transitioned out of the Navy.
You're not fully here, you're not fully present.
You're not fully in this job because you haven't shown a degree of interest
in what they do, and really getting super curious about the technical
aspects of the job, the aspects of the job that depend on you doing your job.
In order for them to be able to do those things well, I'm just wondering
like what they might think about that.
Hmm.
Chip Huth: Jeremy four years is a long time.
Yep.
And I'm not disregarding the cadence of your work or all
the responsibilities you have.
I'm just curious about the prioritization.
I'm curious about what's holding you back from reconsidering those priorities?
I mean, are we gonna wait another four years to get really curious
about these people we find frustrating and disregarding and
Jeremy: No, when you say super curious, I have not been super curious.
No.
Why?
I, I don't know that I have a good reason for that.
Victoria Trammel: I love this moment from Jeremy.
I think this is so honest and, and if I was in his shoes, I don't
know that I would've been willing to say I don't have a good reason.
I think I probably would've come up with about 85,000 reasons why I
haven't chip and justified to you all the things that I needed to be
doing rather than getting curious.
I think this is, this is big.
For relatively early on in your conversation.
Chip Huth: Yeah.
Look, Jeremy kind of becomes my hero here in this moment because
I don't think I would've had the courage to say what he said.
Victoria Trammel: Same.
I think
Chip Huth: it, it, it would've been true, like it would've been
as true for me as it is for Jeremy.
I've been in these situations where it's, it's been true,
but the fact that he can just.
Be honest about it because he's smart enough, he's agile enough, he could have
came up with an excuse, uh, but he didn't.
He just let that all go and he got to the point where he could, he
could actually question himself and be honest about right.
What's happening.
And that is, that's the predicate for improving.
Matter of fact, that's the point of our work, is to get people to the point
where they can make that admission.
Right, and that allows him to dive a little bit deeper.
Victoria Trammel: I mean, just with that one phrase, I feel like he has pierced
the veil of his inward mindset, right?
The fact that he's willing to consider that he doesn't have a good reason.
Right.
What does that mean?
He has no justification.
He has no justification for not doing the thing.
He knows he needs to do that.
That is like.
I mean that that is, that is the pivotal point.
That's where we would hope every leader could get to where they go,
man, I don't really have a good reason.
Chip Huth: If I'm not willing to question, Hey, where am I wrong?
Where am I not seeing this correctly?
Where have I mistepped?
Where have I not acted in the way that I feel I should act in this situation?
Where have I not taken my responsibility if I can't ask that question?
I'm not after the truth.
I'm after justification for staying where I'm at, and I think
that's what makes me my hero here.
I wanna
Chip Huth: explore this a little bit.
Um, when you feel like people aren't having due regard for your vast
experience, your expertise, when you feel like they're excluding you from
conversations or editing information and that they're not wanting to collaborate
with you when you're feeling that way, how would you describe those folks?
Like, if it was just you and I talking over a root beer, what would you say?
Jeremy: What would I say about them?
Chip Huth: Yeah, like how do you view them?
I mean,
Jeremy: uh,
Chip Huth: you know, people that aren't including you in collaboration, people
that aren't honoring your expertise.
People that, that, again, don't, uh, seem to want to share the
unvarnished truth with you.
Jeremy: Uh, I get very frustrated with them.
I kind of see them as an outsider for me, you know, in an odd way I respect them.
But then I don't get that respect back and that's what frustrates me.
Um, so I don't look down at them.
I don't think of them differently.
I just get frustrated because I don't see why that level of
respect is not reciprocated back.
Chip Huth: So what I'm hearing you say is that you experienced them as
knowledgeable, uh, in the technical sense.
You also experience them as frustrating as outsiders and as
people who are disrespectful.
Yes.
How do you respond to that?
How does that show up in your behaviors?
Jeremy: Uh, I, I would say that, uh, I end up getting short and curt
with them and, uh, maybe I try to be right instead of get it right.
I try to exude more of a authoritarian leadership instead of collaborative.
Chip Huth: You mentioned that you prefer collaborative.
Jeremy: Yes,
and then I just conflicted myself, um, that that is what I prefer, but when
I don't get respected or my experience doesn't get respected or gets discounted.
The red flag.
As I become short, I become Kurt, and then, hey, this is what we're gonna do
instead of my desire to be collaborative.
Chip Huth: You're recognizing that as a red flag That's curious
Jeremy: now that we're talking through it.
Absolutely.
I, I haven't thought about it in this perspective, but
that is absolutely a red flag.
Instead of being collaborative, I become more, uh, dictatorial.
Yeah, there's just the lack of trust.
Like, you know what I say from their perspective, I'm imagining what
I say is not gonna matter because Jeremy's gonna make up his own mind.
He's gonna do what he wants to do and not take our thoughts or
ideas or suggestions into account.
He's already made his mind up
Chip Huth: between the session and the next session.
Is, I want you to think deeply about what's held you back
from being more curious.
What's held you back from going out on the front line?
I. And simply asking questions or pulling people in that are doing
the technical aspects of the work and getting curious about their
challenges, their impediments or goals.
Victoria Trammel: A few weeks later, Jeremy and Chip got back together for
their next session, and the space between coaching sessions is just as valuable
as the sessions themselves because that's where the real work happens.
It's where mindset is put to the test and new ways of thinking start to take hold.
Chip Huth: What does it mean for you if you don't know it all?
Jeremy: Uh, if I don't know it, all that means I need to ask questions,
then I need to dig in and I need to understand, and it, and it's
okay for me to not know it all.
There's a bunch of this company that I don't know, it, it's a, it's a small
miracle, the things that happen every day, but I guess in those situations.
I rely on those leaders to execute that piece of the mission that I don't know.
Chip Huth: But is it really okay for you not to know it all?
What I mean by that is, are you okay with being ignorant?
Can you set comfortably in ignorance?
What feeling arises in you when you feel like you're ignorant?
Jeremy: Uh, I don't like that feeling, you know, at the root of it.
I'm not okay with that.
Um.
I, I just, I don't like not knowing at, at, at the very core of that question,
Chip Huth: be interested in trying to explore where that comes from,
because here's the thing, you're a very intelligent person, so
cognitively you understand that you can't possibly know everything, not
within any domain, even a domain.
You've dedicated your life to like leadership cognitively,
but at the visceral level, it's causing some type of disease.
I. I'm just curious where that comes from.
Jeremy: That's
Chip Huth: a great question.
I may be way off here, but is there any sense in which to the degree
you feel like you can't do this job, it's impacting your ability to learn?
I'm talking about your self-doubt.
I'm talking about the self-doubt that you're not talking about.
I'm talking about the deep down inside questioning.
Despite all of the experience of the contrary or whether or
not you can actually do this.
Jeremy: Yes.
Those thoughts have crossed my mind
Chip Huth: for sure.
I'm just curious, where does that come from?
What experiences have you had that have suggested to you?
You're not good enough.
Hmm.
Jeremy: It probably goes way deep, but probably childhood.
I mean, it, it would go back that far.
I, I would say, yeah, I'm gonna say that goes the childhood.
Piece is just, um, never good enough for my father.
Right?
Just not good enough.
Uh, not fast enough, not strong enough, not smart enough.
Just not, not, not, and I think that that's probably, uh, well,
no, not even probably when, because I've thought about this in the past
and, and where does that come from?
And, and it all leads back to that not good enough.
As a child in my father's eyes, that's where I would point it back to.
Victoria Trammel: When Jeremy's talking here, it's my heart hurts.
'cause I think I've had very similar experiences, not necessarily
with my dad, but with others.
And in a way, as I've reflected on this, it's one of those things that
if I want to justify an inward style that I have, I will latch onto the
sentiments of others to use those to bolster that justification.
So if I'm in a situation where I feel that I am incapable, it's very easy
for me to call up hurtful experiences from the, from, you know, my, my past,
my childhood, previous relationships where I am, I was told I was incapable.
And then give those such heavy weight and meaning that I allow it to shape the way
that I view myself moving forward because these people who were so significant in
my life and my formation had this opinion.
Therefore, I. It must be true because that's how I'm feeling right now.
It's a cyclical thing, right?
I'm feeling this way, so I look for justification that reinforces
it, and the further that I can go back the better, right?
Because that means that there's a quote, history of me being this way, so that it
then justifies me being this way, and it's frustrating, and it's disappointing, and
it's encouraging all at the same time.
To know that there are things that are horrible that happen to people.
No doubt, like factually, there are terrible things that happen, but we
have so much power over the way that we take those words and those experiences
and how we let it shape our future.
But it's so easy to get stuck, and I think that's the thing that interests me here
when Jeremy's talking is, you know, what's it gonna look like for him to get unstuck?
Chip Huth: When we're stuck, when we're looking back on our relationships
and trying to make meaning of what we perceive as suffering, especially
at the hands of others, right?
Like, we're doing this for a reason, Jeremy, me, you, all of us.
We have reasons why we tell ourselves these stories.
We're protecting ourself from some perceived threat, but.
You are right in saying that we have more control than we think we do.
We do.
Um, it feels scary because like I'm tempted to think, well, look,
the things that happen to me define me, but it's really the meaning
that I make of what happens to me.
That's what defines me, and that's what allows me to take control of the situation
and not import it into my current reality.
You know, it could be true that people have mistreated me, um, and they're
culpable for that, but I'm responsible for the meaning that I give to what they did.
Sometimes people will mistreat you.
I mean, that's what people do.
To varying degrees, right?
We're hard on one another, but for me, then to take that
mistreatment and to accept that as a verdict against my worth, right?
That's a corruption of reality.
That's saying like, this person has power over me.
I've given them power over me to determine who I am.
And how much value I bring to the world.
Why would we do that?
Well, we would do the hat for one reason we would do that is to
avoid responsibility for improving.
If I really am broken and powerless, then I'm not, I don't,
I'm not required to be better.
I'm not required to get unstuck.
Right.
I'm just, I'm, I'm the perpetual victim.
And this isn't discounting people who are actually victimized by things.
They, people are really victimized by things.
But I have the power to not let my past dictate my present or my future.
I have the power not to continually re-victimize myself by reliving that
narrative and by again, importing into my current relationships.
Once Jeremy or you or I or anyone can see that.
We can see our responsibility and, and, and understand it, and see
the way we're disabling ourselves.
We can take responsibility for changing, for changing the meaning we give
those past experiences, and that's the key in my mind to unleashing,
you know, the power of what we're calling the outward mindset, right?
Being able to take on responsibility to not self excuse.
To not use those past traumas, those past incidents, um, as a reason for my current
avoiding of obligation or my current dehumanizing of other people or my current
accusations that I make against folks.
McKinlay Otterson: Hey everyone.
McKinley here, one of the hosts of Leading Outward.
Since this is one of our first episodes, I wanted to give
you a quick lay of the land.
You're currently listening to one of our coaching episodes.
We also release narrative episodes that explore a single leadership challenge,
and we've created these two formats so that you're getting both ideas and
a chance to see what incorporating those ideas looks like in practice.
We're so glad you're here.
And if someone's come to mind while you've been listening, it's probably because
what you're hearing could help them solve points of friction in their life.
Invite them to learn alongside us by sharing this episode with them
Chip Huth: in the Navy.
You were really good at your job.
I was highly competent.
Yes, 24 years is a long time to be highly competent.
It's something to be functioning at a high level and then to step away from that
into a new role with a bunch of unknowns.
I'm just trying to imagine what that would feel like.
It's almost like you're leaving this to use an nautical term, this anchor, right.
What's anchoring you?
Yes.
Uh, maybe.
Maybe, I don't know.
Maybe that could even be part of your identity at some point, right.
The competent person who gets things done.
Yes, absolutely.
I'm gonna run something by you.
Um, I am sensing kind of conflicting objectives, personal objectives,
objectives that you have.
And, and I've seen this in myself before, by the way.
There's the stated objective that you have one, which is to
increase your level of competence.
In the past four years of being here, you've recognized, hey, there
are different ways of doing things, different processes in place, and you
self-disclose that you hadn't done as much as you felt you could do objectively
to learn to grow in that four years.
A bit of knowledge that you feel like you have a sense that you, you need
to dedicate yourself to developing.
So that's like the stated objective.
I want to grow my competence.
Okay.
What I find ends up driving our decision making and driving our behavior
is often the unstated objectives, the stuff that's under the surface
that almost feels unconscious.
So if someone says, look, I'd like to grow my knowledge, but I'm
engaging in behavior that actually doesn't further my stated goal.
So I say, Jeremy, I'd like to learn more about this operation, yet I'm
doing things or not doing things that run counter to achieving that goal.
So it sounds like madness, right?
Mm-hmm.
Like what?
Okay, chip, you say, this is what you want.
Why are you behaving in a way that's not gonna get you what you want?
And, and what I've found is, at least in my life, is that often I
have a secret mission, something that's not stated, that's actually
driving my decision making.
It's, and it's, it's informed by my mindset, meaning you told me that you
were concerned, one of your concerns was looking incompetent, looking like
you didn't know what you were doing.
So think about how that might conflict with becoming more competent.
If I say I want to be more competent and simultaneously I want to be
seen as the smartest person in the room, how could that get in the
way of me being more competent?
What are your thoughts?
Jeremy: My mind went right away where if I need to look competent.
I might not ask a question, I might not expose and, and ask a silly
question or dive into something deeper.
Even though in my mind when somebody says something, I don't
necessarily say, tell me more.
And, and, and I've learned that I need to, I need to do that more instead of, you
know, an hour later I should have asked that, or I should have dug into that more.
You know, I, I might hold back.
Because I don't wanna look incompetent.
That, that's where my mind went right away.
Chip Huth: To what degree have you found yourself doing that?
Jeremy: It depends on the situation, but I mean, I do it, um, in, in
certain meetings around certain people, um, probably to avoid conflict.
Chip Huth: That's interesting.
In what way does that avoid conflict?
Staying willfully ignorant.
Jeremy: It's my insecurity because I don't wanna look silly asking, Hey, why is that?
What is that process?
Chip Huth: I feel like you're working at cross purposes.
Like, I want to be dependable, I want to help people, but at
the same time I get so stuck.
So it's like, whoa, like, okay.
As I'm thinking about this, what does it occur to you to do differently?
Jeremy: It's like a red flag, but.
Uh, when I, uh, avoid something, that's where I need to focus my energy.
Chip Huth: Talk about that more.
What do you mean by red flag?
Jeremy: If there's a situation or a person, um, that I avoid or a put off
that's a red flag, it pops up if I catch it, because I don't catch 'em all.
If that comes up.
Okay.
That's a trigger.
That's a red flag that I need to dig into that I need to focus on that because
if I'm avoiding, why am I avoiding?
Chip Huth: Do you see yourself, uh, avoiding often?
I mean, does that seem like the primary thing that pops up in these situations?
Avoidance,
Jeremy: it's, it, it's not primary, but it's prevalent.
I don't know if that makes sense.
I was doing some thinking about that the last couple of weeks and um, I think
it's really image self preservation.
And I say that because.
Then I'm not putting myself at risk.
I'm not potentially saying something wrong, and I think by avoiding that,
I don't have to confront that, and it's preserving my image of myself.
Chip Huth: What do you think the consequences of that are
in your, in your position?
Jeremy: Oh, uh.
Huge because in my position, I can't be avoiding problems or people, right.
I, I need to have those conversations.
I need to tackle that.
I need to be there, I need to be present.
I don't need to be avoiding, uh, anything.
I do have a mechanism that if I've learned that, if there's something I've.
I'm avoiding, I need to put energy into that.
Probably over the last couple years it's become more, I've
been more self-aware of that.
Avoidance equals action for me.
Chip Huth: How's it been going as far as execution?
I mean, have you, has that been almost an automatic response for you?
You notice the avoidance and you process that, and then you develop a plan of.
Action and you move toward it.
Is that, has that been your process and how's that been working?
Jeremy: I wouldn't say it's automatic.
It's not just automatic, but when I do, um, you know, at least once a
week, uh, self-reflection and, uh, I identify it when I'm thinking through
business and relationships and processes.
That I'm aware of that.
And if I have that little tingling in my neck that I'm avoiding
that or pushing that off, it's getting lower on the task list.
That's where I need to put energy.
So it's, it's not automatic.
It, it takes intentional thought on my part to identify that.
Victoria Trammel: After this session, Jeremy took action on the things
he and Chip had talked about, and when they got back together, Jeremy
shared this powerful experience that highlights what can happen when we turn
outward toward the people around us.
Jeremy: Since you and I talked, I used the outward mindset and I owned a mistake.
We did not get foreman pay, right?
And so in May we did some, we did, did our annual pay raises, and our
foreman, um, pointed out some glaring discrepancies in our calculus.
And I said, Hey, let me, let me take a look at it.
And where I failed was, um.
I didn't act quick enough and probably stuck my head in the, in the sand.
And some time went by and general superintendent said, Hey, we've gotta
solve this and it, and it's not easy.
We can't just throw money up problems.
There's a lot of thought that goes into this to get it right.
I said, next Friday, I'm gonna solve this by next Friday.
Well, that manifested in itself that.
The foreman thought that I was gonna come talk to him on a
Friday, and so I didn't do that.
I had some meetings in between to try to get this right.
Friday I was, uh, it was probably about 6 30, 7 o'clock at night.
Superintendent called me and said, Hey, did you talk to the foreman today?
And I said, no.
And we got into it and immediately.
I knew that I had negatively impacted the guys that really pay my salary.
They are the bread and butter of the company, right?
And they get it done.
And I had negatively impacted them.
Whether I came back and told 'em that they got a, a different merit raise or
they didn't, they wanted and deserved an answer and I didn't give it to them.
And I will tell you that.
The rest of that night, at least Saturday through half a Sunday, I
was beating myself up pretty bad.
It'd been very easy for me as I reflect back on this to say I did not say that
I was gonna tell the foreman on Friday that I was gonna go meet with them.
But it happened.
That's how it was communicated.
And I didn't do something, I haven't gotten back to
the foreman after some time.
And so the first thing I did Monday morning is I went and talked to the
foreman and said, Hey, I'm sorry.
Here's the date that you will have an answer by.
And I, and I got it fixed and, and, uh, they were appreciative that I came out
and told them that I don't have an answer.
The answer isn't no.
I'm still working on it.
I'm sorry I've impacted you negatively.
Um, I will do better.
At the time, I felt that's the only thing that I could do, and I fixed
the problem and, and, uh, I think they were happy with the outcome.
Even on the weekend I was traveling, um, the three people, the, the superintendents
I came in gave 'em a handwritten note and said, Hey, I screwed up.
I'm sorry.
You deserve better.
I will be better.
We will get this right.
That's basically all I told him.
Chip Huth: How do you feel on the other side of that?
Jeremy: I should have done that way earlier.
I feel I let people down and you know, that took away some trust capital that
I had built up in the organization.
That specific incident, I didn't do what I said I was gonna do.
That really impacted major players in the company.
And so on a personal level.
I don't feel good about that.
Um, but I learned a huge lesson that I gotta understand how I impact people,
and I just wasn't equating that time period between when the foreman brought
the information to me, and this really went south quickly during that time.
I didn't fully appreciate how it was impacting them.
They just wanted an answer.
Whether it was, no, I'm still working on it, or here's a raise.
They just wanted an answer back.
Chip Huth: You took a situation and you, you mentioned this kind of, it,
it, it took away some from some of the trust capital you built up, but in, in
my estimation, the way that you shifted there, you actually took a situation.
That could have been very negative and you turned it into
an opportunity to build trust.
I, I hope you recognize that.
Jeremy: Yes.
Yeah.
Chip Huth: Because you, you came into it, this, there's adversity, there's
conflict, there's concern, there's people that feel marginalized, maybe perhaps,
or an appreciated, and then you come in.
And simply no excuses made.
I dropped the ball on this.
And further than that, you said, this is what I'm gonna do to make it right.
So I, I'm gonna guess, Jeremy, that they walked away probably trusting you more,
which sounds totally counterintuitive.
Yeah, yeah.
I, I think they
Jeremy: did.
Victoria Trammel: This is huge for Jeremy.
I mean, I, I think it's so tremendous the fact that one, this naturally occurred
to him when he was able to figure out what he was supposed to do, and two, that
once he got to that point, he did it.
When we can move from an inward to an outward mindset, it's just we can
acknowledge something that went wrong.
We take ownership and accountability for it, reconcile
their relationship and move on.
Chip Huth: Letter writing never occurred to him.
When he stepped outta line with his values, but once he realigns
with what matters, right?
The things he really believes are important.
Once he does that, all of a sudden it occurs to him.
I think the right thing to do is write a letter that wasn't even on his radar
before, but he's not making a sacrifice.
He's not martyring himself.
I. He's just simply doing what Outwardness dictates in the situation.
He's recovered his sense of these people as people, and he's acting
truthfully and honestly and forthrightly.
That is the most powerful thing we can ever do when our goal is to
connect with and lead other people.
Victoria Trammel: It's been a while since we've talked to Jeremy and we were
curious how it's been going for him.
So we reached out to see what his leadership journey has continued
to look like for him and his team.
Jeremy: Not too long ago, we had a crew that they had some pretty major
infractions, things that would warrant getting terminated, and my initial
reaction, I went right to blame.
I wanted to go and terminate 'em.
All right.
I said, well, I need to step back.
So if my mind is going right to blame, change your mindset.
Let's get curious.
And so, you know, I went out to that crew with a open mind, um, with
empathy, and I had a conversation with him and I just really understood,
hey, what was going through your mind when you all were doing this?
Do you realize these are implications of your actions, you know, up to losing
your life or termination, and actually walked away with a much better connection.
And, um, today, months later, crew, they are more high performing now, and
they, they changed, uh, their attitude.
They change how they operate and that's a.
Attributed to getting curious, knowing that I was going to
blame, and then instead going with empathy and leading with curiosity.
And I just thought that was a huge win.
Chip Huth: Yeah, brother, it's been, this has been incredible.
I, I really appreciate you letting me in and, and, and letting me grow with you.
Jeremy: There's no words that can express my gratitude of you willing
to, uh, dig into some of these and challenge me to get better, think
deeper how manifesting some of these bad behaviors that are impacting the others.
So, uh, I really, really appreciate you spending the time with me and,
and, uh, helping me grow as a leader.
Chip Huth: Hmm.
So cool, Jeremy.
So cool.
Alright my brother.
We will see each other down the road.
I am quite certain.
Jeremy: Absolutely.
Thanks for your time, chip.
You take care.
Chip Huth: Thank you.
My friend
McKinlay Otterson: Leading Outward is produced by the Arbinger Institute
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